- Status
/www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/07/pc-gaming-e3s-dirty-little-secret/
[citation][nom]greghome[/nom]Lemme guess....10 years now? the Xbox 360 and PS3's 6 year lifespan is long enough and has hold back PC gaming for so long.......I wonder if Carmack still remembers where Doom and wolfenstein first won the whole gaming community[/citation]
yea... you see... we reached a plateau, looking at current consoles, and than looking at tech demos for "future engines" i see absolutely NOTHING that cant be done on the current consoles outside of lighting, physics, and to some extent the polly count.
the most recent engine that i looked at, the square enix one (mostlikely a console engine) and unreal 4, both of those i see nothing beyond physics in them, lighting effects that we can currently fake to save processing power, and other effects that can be faked to save power.
if you take the physics away, and the lighting, they look like high resolution textured current games.
look at crysis on the pc, maxed, and look at the engines that they show now, and you can see where things were faked in crysis, and where things are real time in those, and you can just imagine the wasted processing power...
now that it has been what, 7 years, and i still can look at some of those games, like mgs4, uncharted, are playing on hardware that is that old, and look that good... don't get me wrong, i can see the faults, but they are still impressive games, and if i imagine them released with current top end graphics card in sli power needed to run, i cant see them adding anything to the games that they don't currently have. they would be prettier, i have no doubt there, but is that all?
what carmack is doing with HMD is something i have been screaming for sense i first used one to anyone who may listen.
and saying that a console has an advantage over a pc because you know 100% how that game will be played, how the graphics will turn out... you have to be stupid to refute that claim.
yea... you see... we reached a plateau, looking at current consoles, and than looking at tech demos for "future engines" i see absolutely NOTHING that cant be done on the current consoles outside of lighting, physics, and to some extent the polly count.
the most recent engine that i looked at, the square enix one (mostlikely a console engine) and unreal 4, both of those i see nothing beyond physics in them, lighting effects that we can currently fake to save processing power, and other effects that can be faked to save power.
if you take the physics away, and the lighting, they look like high resolution textured current games.
look at crysis on the pc, maxed, and look at the engines that they show now, and you can see where things were faked in crysis, and where things are real time in those, and you can just imagine the wasted processing power...
now that it has been what, 7 years, and i still can look at some of those games, like mgs4, uncharted, are playing on hardware that is that old, and look that good... don't get me wrong, i can see the faults, but they are still impressive games, and if i imagine them released with current top end graphics card in sli power needed to run, i cant see them adding anything to the games that they don't currently have. they would be prettier, i have no doubt there, but is that all?
what carmack is doing with HMD is something i have been screaming for sense i first used one to anyone who may listen.
and saying that a console has an advantage over a pc because you know 100% how that game will be played, how the graphics will turn out... you have to be stupid to refute that claim.
I have more respect for John Romero than Carmack by this point. At least Romero has actively been saying he wants to return to PC FPS development and is planning on bringing back the style of games that he helped make amazing (he was responsible for the incredible level design of Doom/Doom 2, which no FPS has yet to even approach since).
As unpopular as the guy is in the gaming press because of Daikatana, Romero is the real deal. The real John we should be following quotes from is Romero, not Carmack. Carmack just wants to go where the money is now and that's about it.
As unpopular as the guy is in the gaming press because of Daikatana, Romero is the real deal. The real John we should be following quotes from is Romero, not Carmack. Carmack just wants to go where the money is now and that's about it.
[citation][nom]magicandy[/nom]I have more respect for John Romero than Carmack by this point. At least Romero has actively been saying he wants to return to PC FPS development and is planning on bringing back the style of games that he helped make amazing (he was responsible for the incredible level design of Doom/Doom 2, which no FPS has yet to even approach since).As unpopular as the guy is in the gaming press because of Daikatana, Romero is the real deal. The real John we should be following quotes from is Romero, not Carmack. Carmack just wants to go where the money is now and that's about it.[/citation]
just so we are clear, John Romero wants a return to doom style games, not just a return to pc gaming. he wants games where you have to take into account how close you are to your enemies, you know, the mindless ai that runs at you and shoots the back of their own allies ai...
im not saying those are bad games, my favroite ones in that genre are serious sam and painkiller, but thats not a step forward.
lets take consoles out of the conversation, and focus on what Carmack is doing, or at least what it sounds like.
he is putting on what i believe is a 3d hmd, and is making it better, and with the features of a cellphone.
lets go into a game with that.
you sit in your chair, you turn on a racing game. you got your wheel, you put on the hmd, and you are in the drivers seat, you look to your left and you see the car next to you, you look at the rear veiw mirror and see more. you look behind you and see out the back window, you move a bit to the side, and you do in game, you cock your head to the side, just to see if the game will follow, and holy crap it does.
thats what i believe he is trying to do, make the games THAT imersive. granted, with an fps, they are a long way off on that end, but a racing game... that would breath new life into that genre, especially if the games were good at what they do, because when you have a head mount that does what i describe up there, even if it isnt 3d, you still feel like you are there, if he can get sony or microsoft to make hmd support, that is the only thing i will need.
gaming needs hmd, whether it knows it or not.
just so we are clear, John Romero wants a return to doom style games, not just a return to pc gaming. he wants games where you have to take into account how close you are to your enemies, you know, the mindless ai that runs at you and shoots the back of their own allies ai...
im not saying those are bad games, my favroite ones in that genre are serious sam and painkiller, but thats not a step forward.
lets take consoles out of the conversation, and focus on what Carmack is doing, or at least what it sounds like.
he is putting on what i believe is a 3d hmd, and is making it better, and with the features of a cellphone.
lets go into a game with that.
you sit in your chair, you turn on a racing game. you got your wheel, you put on the hmd, and you are in the drivers seat, you look to your left and you see the car next to you, you look at the rear veiw mirror and see more. you look behind you and see out the back window, you move a bit to the side, and you do in game, you cock your head to the side, just to see if the game will follow, and holy crap it does.
thats what i believe he is trying to do, make the games THAT imersive. granted, with an fps, they are a long way off on that end, but a racing game... that would breath new life into that genre, especially if the games were good at what they do, because when you have a head mount that does what i describe up there, even if it isnt 3d, you still feel like you are there, if he can get sony or microsoft to make hmd support, that is the only thing i will need.
gaming needs hmd, whether it knows it or not.
[citation][nom]aoneone[/nom]Long lifespan? Please don't make me laugh again...Remember Bill Gates in 1981? "640k ought to be enough for anybody..." Yeah lets not jump to conclusions here LOL[/citation]
that quote apparently never happened, but that aside, lets put that into today's perspective, "160gb of ram is all you ever need"
back than that 640kb was 10 times what could commonly be put into a system, and back than, 640kb was an ungodly high amount of ram.
[citation][nom]captainnemojr[/nom]I'm glad that since the fail of Rage, instead of working on Doom 4, he's been working on a headset to go along with Doom 3 Reloaded......[/citation]
rage failed? it had a messy start, but i dont think it was bad, at least the ai was really nice. and to me that is all that matters, the ai. carmack focused on one of the many things that get put to the wayside in lue of better graphics, all while making a REALLY nice engine (when it works right)
[citation][nom]house70[/nom]This guy has abandoned PC gaming a while ago; even now, when "working" on a PC game, he still bitches about it. Rage was a flop on PC, and he took the Jobs' attitude "you're using the drivers wrong". Like he didn't have access to the video drivers during development...He's dead to me, I am sorry I bought his games and will never buy any of his work again. Let him develop for consoles, phones and what ever else he thinks will bring in a quick buck; he's not getting any of my money anymore.[/citation]
lets see here, consoles add up to what, 100 million people, just xbox 360 and ps3, and pc gaming has how many people... i cant blame him for going to consoles, but you whining about a game coming out and not being bug free... did you play old games at all? remember when you use to have to have this EXACT hardware setup or that game was a buggy mess? just because we finally have a more or less universal system doesn't mean that some games wont be a mess at launch. than put that side by side with many people NOT having problems at launch on the pc.
and this is carmack, the guy who when he heard the Jaguar was a pain to program for, went challenge accepted and ported doom to it.
[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]I might start to respect him again as a pioneer much like the old days when Quake was new and he made the best 3d engine with the latest hardware (Voodoo from 3dfx or Riva anyone?). Since then ID haven't been pushing any boundary's at all but rather made efficient use of already old hardware.[/citation]
thats the best thing to do though, make code more efficient and make lesser hardware viable with it, i could program a game of pong to bring a gforce 590 to its knees if i wanted to, and you can re work the code in most games to make the hardware lesser, however most companies pre 360 and ps3 were content with brute forcing with future hardware.
[citation][nom]IJustWantToPost2[/nom]I don't know about anyone else, but I'm looking forward to a decent HMD VR unit. I remember back in the day going to an amusement park, and inside the arcade they had setup some Sega VR test units. 5 dollars for about 2 minutes and it was AWESOME!! Or so I thought as a young boy. Since that point, I have not seen a similar system and have been extremely disappointed with every product I have tried. "20-45 deg. angles and head tracking that doesn't work, pfff." ended up being my final thoughts. If Carmack can deliver an HMD with a 90 deg. viewing angle and head tracking that actually WORKS for $500, I'll be all over that! Doom 3 that actually works with the HMD? an added bonus! But thats just my 2 cents.[/citation]
he could to a complete 360 head tracking if he has the right hardware, and its cheap to implement too. but a hmd in an fps without also taking body movement is a lack luster experience, trust me, i have played them... but what would be great would be a racing game, im not a big fan of them, but its a game where you are literaly sitting in a seat in side of the game, it will be the best genre for the emerging tech, and one that if people tried with it, would be a must own experience. because everyone wants to drive a car really fast, everyone...
[citation][nom]Prey[/nom]I will say this trailer looks awesome, but the only boundry that id and Mr Carmack are pushing is how long you can rest on your laurels. IMHO I look at Rage as a victory for Carmack, it seemed like after Doom3 he didn't want to do any dev work for PC, so Rage was his "See I told you so." So now he must feel fully justified abandoning the PC market. While he probably didn't want it to fail, it was good for him that it did, so he can make console games.. again.. just good for him.[/citation]
[citation][nom]shloader[/nom]Prey's right. Rage was just decent enough (barely) that it was a no-lose scenario in the eyes of the Carmack. On the flip side the man's influence is heavily erroded that he's more irrelevant every year. He has so effectively alienated id's original following that no one really cares about their games on PC anymore. In the console space id has no real reputation with that crowd so they must co-develope to get a recognized studio involved... or should I say 'ride on their reputation'?"Doom? Didn't my dad play that when he was in high school?" - There, ya feelin' old now?[/citation]
you two do realize that carmack is a programmer right? not a game designer (well, at least not sense the old days when the design wasn't complex) he makes the cool crap, the engines, that we dont really see, he programs the ai, not the maps. and he does this well. i have to side with him, at least when ever he says anything programming related, like its the drivers fault.
[citation][nom]DroKing[/nom]"You can certainly see cloud gaming being built into every display device and traditional consoles could become more like the audiophile niche of people who want the extreme experience there," How can a guy who got famous by making few sweet ass FPS for pc say this? Audiophile niche of people who want the extreme is CONSOLES!? I think a little bit inside of me just died a little. PC is THE EXTREME. You freaking MORAN.[/citation]
you so miss the point of that quote. audiophiles are small in number, a niche, and once internet is good enough everywhere, i can see cloud becoming the norm... much to my disdain. i said in the past some games cant be played over cloud, but i can see everything moving to it at some point, because companies want that.
[citation][nom]john_4[/nom]Carmack us to be a respected name among the PC gaming community, from the posts and my own feelings about him now, that has changed.[/citation]
i honestly say boo hoo, most people who dont like him want games on pc and nothing else, let alone those games must be so graphically over powering that even on low setting is requires a quad sli to run at even 20fps at 1280x720, and i really cant care less about those peoples opinions. those people think he makes the games, and not just the engines.
that quote apparently never happened, but that aside, lets put that into today's perspective, "160gb of ram is all you ever need"
back than that 640kb was 10 times what could commonly be put into a system, and back than, 640kb was an ungodly high amount of ram.
[citation][nom]captainnemojr[/nom]I'm glad that since the fail of Rage, instead of working on Doom 4, he's been working on a headset to go along with Doom 3 Reloaded......[/citation]
rage failed? it had a messy start, but i dont think it was bad, at least the ai was really nice. and to me that is all that matters, the ai. carmack focused on one of the many things that get put to the wayside in lue of better graphics, all while making a REALLY nice engine (when it works right)
[citation][nom]house70[/nom]This guy has abandoned PC gaming a while ago; even now, when "working" on a PC game, he still bitches about it. Rage was a flop on PC, and he took the Jobs' attitude "you're using the drivers wrong". Like he didn't have access to the video drivers during development...He's dead to me, I am sorry I bought his games and will never buy any of his work again. Let him develop for consoles, phones and what ever else he thinks will bring in a quick buck; he's not getting any of my money anymore.[/citation]
lets see here, consoles add up to what, 100 million people, just xbox 360 and ps3, and pc gaming has how many people... i cant blame him for going to consoles, but you whining about a game coming out and not being bug free... did you play old games at all? remember when you use to have to have this EXACT hardware setup or that game was a buggy mess? just because we finally have a more or less universal system doesn't mean that some games wont be a mess at launch. than put that side by side with many people NOT having problems at launch on the pc.
and this is carmack, the guy who when he heard the Jaguar was a pain to program for, went challenge accepted and ported doom to it.
[citation][nom]rantoc[/nom]I might start to respect him again as a pioneer much like the old days when Quake was new and he made the best 3d engine with the latest hardware (Voodoo from 3dfx or Riva anyone?). Since then ID haven't been pushing any boundary's at all but rather made efficient use of already old hardware.[/citation]
thats the best thing to do though, make code more efficient and make lesser hardware viable with it, i could program a game of pong to bring a gforce 590 to its knees if i wanted to, and you can re work the code in most games to make the hardware lesser, however most companies pre 360 and ps3 were content with brute forcing with future hardware.
[citation][nom]IJustWantToPost2[/nom]I don't know about anyone else, but I'm looking forward to a decent HMD VR unit. I remember back in the day going to an amusement park, and inside the arcade they had setup some Sega VR test units. 5 dollars for about 2 minutes and it was AWESOME!! Or so I thought as a young boy. Since that point, I have not seen a similar system and have been extremely disappointed with every product I have tried. "20-45 deg. angles and head tracking that doesn't work, pfff." ended up being my final thoughts. If Carmack can deliver an HMD with a 90 deg. viewing angle and head tracking that actually WORKS for $500, I'll be all over that! Doom 3 that actually works with the HMD? an added bonus! But thats just my 2 cents.[/citation]
he could to a complete 360 head tracking if he has the right hardware, and its cheap to implement too. but a hmd in an fps without also taking body movement is a lack luster experience, trust me, i have played them... but what would be great would be a racing game, im not a big fan of them, but its a game where you are literaly sitting in a seat in side of the game, it will be the best genre for the emerging tech, and one that if people tried with it, would be a must own experience. because everyone wants to drive a car really fast, everyone...
[citation][nom]Prey[/nom]I will say this trailer looks awesome, but the only boundry that id and Mr Carmack are pushing is how long you can rest on your laurels. IMHO I look at Rage as a victory for Carmack, it seemed like after Doom3 he didn't want to do any dev work for PC, so Rage was his "See I told you so." So now he must feel fully justified abandoning the PC market. While he probably didn't want it to fail, it was good for him that it did, so he can make console games.. again.. just good for him.[/citation]
[citation][nom]shloader[/nom]Prey's right. Rage was just decent enough (barely) that it was a no-lose scenario in the eyes of the Carmack. On the flip side the man's influence is heavily erroded that he's more irrelevant every year. He has so effectively alienated id's original following that no one really cares about their games on PC anymore. In the console space id has no real reputation with that crowd so they must co-develope to get a recognized studio involved... or should I say 'ride on their reputation'?"Doom? Didn't my dad play that when he was in high school?" - There, ya feelin' old now?[/citation]
you two do realize that carmack is a programmer right? not a game designer (well, at least not sense the old days when the design wasn't complex) he makes the cool crap, the engines, that we dont really see, he programs the ai, not the maps. and he does this well. i have to side with him, at least when ever he says anything programming related, like its the drivers fault.
[citation][nom]DroKing[/nom]"You can certainly see cloud gaming being built into every display device and traditional consoles could become more like the audiophile niche of people who want the extreme experience there," How can a guy who got famous by making few sweet ass FPS for pc say this? Audiophile niche of people who want the extreme is CONSOLES!? I think a little bit inside of me just died a little. PC is THE EXTREME. You freaking MORAN.[/citation]
you so miss the point of that quote. audiophiles are small in number, a niche, and once internet is good enough everywhere, i can see cloud becoming the norm... much to my disdain. i said in the past some games cant be played over cloud, but i can see everything moving to it at some point, because companies want that.
[citation][nom]john_4[/nom]Carmack us to be a respected name among the PC gaming community, from the posts and my own feelings about him now, that has changed.[/citation]
i honestly say boo hoo, most people who dont like him want games on pc and nothing else, let alone those games must be so graphically over powering that even on low setting is requires a quad sli to run at even 20fps at 1280x720, and i really cant care less about those peoples opinions. those people think he makes the games, and not just the engines.
ojas
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- Feb 25, 2011
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- 18,940
[citation][nom]alidan[/nom]that quote apparently never happened, but that aside, lets put that into today's perspective, "160gb of ram is all you ever need"back than that 640kb was 10 times what could commonly be put into a system, and back than, 640kb was an ungodly high amount of ram. rage failed? it had a messy start, but i dont think it was bad, at least the ai was really nice. and to me that is all that matters, the ai. carmack focused on one of the many things that get put to the wayside in lue of better graphics, all while making a REALLY nice engine (when it works right) lets see here, consoles add up to what, 100 million people, just xbox 360 and ps3, and pc gaming has how many people... i cant blame him for going to consoles, but you whining about a game coming out and not being bug free... did you play old games at all? remember when you use to have to have this EXACT hardware setup or that game was a buggy mess? just because we finally have a more or less universal system doesn't mean that some games wont be a mess at launch. than put that side by side with many people NOT having problems at launch on the pc. and this is carmack, the guy who when he heard the Jaguar was a pain to program for, went challenge accepted and ported doom to it.thats the best thing to do though, make code more efficient and make lesser hardware viable with it, i could program a game of pong to bring a gforce 590 to its knees if i wanted to, and you can re work the code in most games to make the hardware lesser, however most companies pre 360 and ps3 were content with brute forcing with future hardware. he could to a complete 360 head tracking if he has the right hardware, and its cheap to implement too. but a hmd in an fps without also taking body movement is a lack luster experience, trust me, i have played them... but what would be great would be a racing game, im not a big fan of them, but its a game where you are literaly sitting in a seat in side of the game, it will be the best genre for the emerging tech, and one that if people tried with it, would be a must own experience. because everyone wants to drive a car really fast, everyone...you two do realize that carmack is a programmer right? not a game designer (well, at least not sense the old days when the design wasn't complex) he makes the cool crap, the engines, that we dont really see, he programs the ai, not the maps. and he does this well. i have to side with him, at least when ever he says anything programming related, like its the drivers fault.you so miss the point of that quote. audiophiles are small in number, a niche, and once internet is good enough everywhere, i can see cloud becoming the norm... much to my disdain. i said in the past some games cant be played over cloud, but i can see everything moving to it at some point, because companies want that. i honestly say boo hoo, most people who dont like him want games on pc and nothing else, let alone those games must be so graphically over powering that even on low setting is requires a quad sli to run at even 20fps at 1280x720, and i really cant care less about those peoples opinions. those people think he makes the games, and not just the engines.[/citation]
tl;dr
tl;dr
RADIO_ACTIVE
Distinguished
- Jan 17, 2008
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Annyone else irritated that Carmack keeps bashing the PC and glorifying the console.
I love this crap
"This week as he showcased Doom 3 running on his new headset, Carmack admitted that it would have been a lot easier to make the HMD edition happen on the consoles. "Unfortunately, you can't just plug a USB device into a console and have it work; you have to have it certified and go through a whole process," he said. "And that's a little bit of a shame because even though the PC is ten times more powerful, sometimes getting something done at the exact right point is easier on the consoles"
If its so much easier on the consoles Carass, how come you didn't do your stupid little goggles project on it you jackass.
I love this crap
"This week as he showcased Doom 3 running on his new headset, Carmack admitted that it would have been a lot easier to make the HMD edition happen on the consoles. "Unfortunately, you can't just plug a USB device into a console and have it work; you have to have it certified and go through a whole process," he said. "And that's a little bit of a shame because even though the PC is ten times more powerful, sometimes getting something done at the exact right point is easier on the consoles"
If its so much easier on the consoles Carass, how come you didn't do your stupid little goggles project on it you jackass.
[citation][nom]RADIO_ACTIVE[/nom]Annyone else irritated that Carmack keeps bashing the PC and glorifying the console.I love this crap"This week as he showcased Doom 3 running on his new headset, Carmack admitted that it would have been a lot easier to make the HMD edition happen on the consoles. "Unfortunately, you can't just plug a USB device into a console and have it work; you have to have it certified and go through a whole process," he said. "And that's a little bit of a shame because even though the PC is ten times more powerful, sometimes getting something done at the exact right point is easier on the consoles"If its so much easier on the consoles Carass, how come you didn't do your stupid little goggles project on it you jackass.[/citation]
wow did you not read a word of what you quoted?
consoles pro
1 system type to worry about
consoles con
tedious system
pain to get anything ambitious on
far FAR less powerfull than the pc
pc pro
the power
the plug and play
pc con
the millions of hardware combos
the driver nightmares
i see nothing wrong with stating the obvious, do you?
wow did you not read a word of what you quoted?
consoles pro
1 system type to worry about
consoles con
tedious system
pain to get anything ambitious on
far FAR less powerfull than the pc
pc pro
the power
the plug and play
pc con
the millions of hardware combos
the driver nightmares
i see nothing wrong with stating the obvious, do you?
Everybody here seems to be hating on Carmack, but he has earned his stripes, you can't take them away because he hasn't done anything that great lately. I find it very cool he's supporting PalmerTech with this awesome project, and I know it is hard to be the first to try something, I certainly give him props for that. As for the streamingbased gaming; sure. Cloudgaming means cheaper (bulk) hardware, easier crossplatform development (god bless), no (necessary) lag, no piracy, no updates, no installationtimes, no incompatibilities with hardware etc., just too much. It is here and it will grow, together with the internet. However I agree, I would hate to live in a rural area when it comes, however Wimax might bring a solution..
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