General Laptop Advice From An Old Pro.

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cbrunnem

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hijackers? just cause you sell laptops or did doesnt make you all knowing. last time i went to look at laptops the sales person was an idiot. what we are trying to achieve is to prevent bad recomendations and you gave one based on bad theology.
 

cbrunnem

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also it looks like that graph shows power consumption at max load. if that is the case, it could be misleading because the i5 will not have to be a full load nearly as much as the amd.
 
No need to talk to Don. He got it right. For some reason you're ignoring what he wrote or don't understand the implications.
And so why did you talk about the one battery test (3D Mark06 loop) that simulated gaming performance?
THG says: The implications of this are profound: a Llano laptop user might be able to play a mainstream 3D game for an entire two-hour flight with decent frame rates, while the Intel Core i5-based platform would only last for half of the flight with choppy performance.

-> The other chart - RLUMark2011 the one that didn't simulate gaming - had the Core i5-2520M using less power over the entire test, although it was a close run thing. Does the A6-3400 uses less power than A8-3500? Yes, and so do the i5-2410 and i3-2310 use less power than the i5-2520M.

Then we have you telling people "battery life. The Llano platform has answered that in spades". And so you recommend bypassing a Dell Vostro 3400 ($469 w/ 4800mAh battery) for the Gateway NV55S04u ($499 4400mAh battery).

This isn't wrong - just misleading. The really big advantage is the fact that it lasts for about 6-8 hours on battery alone because of the power savings achieved by having the CPU and GPU inside the same chip. You don't disclose that to get that amount of battery life you need a bigger battery.

If you had added 'while gaming' in this sentence you'd have been right. I also think you missed the fact that the battery life of the A6-3400M is literally DOUBLE that of the i5 with a discrete card. As written, and especially for non-gaming operation that is wrong.

And you said "The Llano's battery life is literally triple what AMD laptops used to do and has far surpassed Intel's Sandy Bridge architecture with regard to battery life."

That's wrong, just flat wrong.
(not the part about past AMD laptops though to be fair it's more like double what they used to provide).
 
You're wrong on a number of points and I don't mind pointing that out.

I should also say that I nearly always agree with the majority of your opinions. It's not like you to get it so wrong about battery life.

I've been suggesting Llano notebooks on occasion and will in the future. I won't try and mis-lead them about what they can expect in any facet of performance though.

You're welcome.
 

Avro Arrow

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If you think that's what I'm trying to do, then you misunderstood. I never said it was going to be a Ferrari of a computer, I said that it would do everything they wanted it to do and then some with fantastic battery life and a low price. I got the battery life information from tomhardware's own review. I've never personally owned a Llano-based machine (I will soon enough though) and all I have to go on is what is said in reviews. I've always found tomshardware to be more or less on the money with reviews and when their review says double, I accept that as the truth. I gave you the link that made the battery life statement quite specifically so at least you know where I got my idea. As for the triple battery life compared to the old AMD systems, I think it was Guru3D that made that statement but I'll check up on it to be certain. :sol:
 

cbrunnem

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did you read the page you linked us too? cause if you did you would have read this.

"Based on the chart, you’d expect that the A8-3500M APU would have the advantage over Intel’s Core i5-2520M in general power usage.

But Intel’s processor dips into a low power state more often. This mode-switching results in very similar power numbers. The Core i5-2520M averaged 12.8 watts during Web browsing, 17 watts during office tasks, and 19.4 watts in movie playback. In contrast, the A8-3500M averages 15.2 watts, 16.3 watts, and 19.5 watts, respectively. And while the Core i5 demonstrates faster CPU performance in our benchmarks, that isn’t as much of a factor when you’re surfing the net, typing a document, or playing back a movie. The experience is the same."

looks like overall that the i5 beats the a8 in everything but gaming in battery life.
 

ParanoidAndroid_0099

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I do not actually know why you are looking at A8-3500M battery life, then Avro Arrow has actually been talking about the A6. if I were you I would start a fresh thread to discuss the relative merits of Battery usage of both AMD & Intel Processors. Thank you for your useful insight into topics not relating to this thread






 

Tongi

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I am mortified! I was notified by email when I had received your first reply, so made the stupid assumption you hadn't replied (quite rightly so..) to my rather inane further questions... oh I do apologize... and thank you, again, for your generosity in replying.

We leave for the UK in about ten days, and I will go - armed with your advice - to the computer outlets there. Notwithstanding my comments above, I shall continue to read your advice to others, and when the time comes for me to consider my own computer (laptop or desktop) I might even be so bold as to come searching for advice.. Have you written a book?!

Thank you so much.
 

iank_58

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AVRO RE-Laptop/PC Myths

I read with interest your comments about computer specifications and tend to agree. I'm currently specifying components for a new futures trading desktop which will essentially run upto 4 x 19" screens. being atrader I'm keen to ensure my system is dependable, reliable and able to run and display crystal clear 2D charts (since I look at these over extended periods) on a multi monitor setup. Although I'm receiving live streaming data its not that resource hungry but I want the sytem to be responsive. I'll also perhap be running a few spreadsheets and websites. rightly or wrongly I'm looking at the following components and welcome your comments / help as I don't want to over / under specify things.

Asus motherboard Sabertooth Intel P67
Intel CPU core i5 2500 Sandybridge
Gigabyte Graphics card GeForce GTX 560 1GB GDDR5 PCI-E 2.0 DVI
Thermaltake Toughpower XT 875W Modular PSU - 4x PCI-E 8x SATA
OCZ SSD 120GB Solid 3 SATA III 2.5"(S035302)
Corsair 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3 2000MHz XMS3 Memory Kit CL9 1.65V

Note: I do own a matrox dualhead2go analogue graphics device as well as a matrox dualhead2go digital device so I could utilise these on a two out graphics card to achieve up to 4 monitors.

Thanks
Ian
 

dentednj

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Hi,
Thanks for your info. it's good to here there really isn't a huge difference between the brands as long as you compare their features.
My mother wants to buy my son (10 yrs old) a laptop to use at home. He has a small desk area to use. It will be plugged in usually, but may be taken elsewhere sometimes. He only does gaming on his Wii or Nintendo Gameboy or DSi. We don't have the funds to start buying additional games for the computer, so he'd probably get a new gaming computer when he gets older and if he really is into gaming. Right now he's 10, and needs to use the internet, and write homework assignments. Can you recommend a couple laptops for under $500.00 and a retailer? I've bought things from Tiger Direct before and Newegg, as well as retail stores in NJ.
Thanks in advance,
Denise T.
 

Toasty64

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This post is silly. Brand doesn't matter? Hirarious. Keeping your devices on a charger all the time will make the Li-Ion battery's effectively immortal? Ridikulus.

I've fixed plenty of computers, both desktops and laptops. Many of them were Acer's and quite a few were Dells. The Compaq's were never repairable, and the HP's only sometimes so. But I've only ever had to fix one Toshiba (some of their earlier models had a problem with the display cable shorting out, simply replacing the damaged part fixed the issue).

Heck, just disassembling the things will give you a good idea of the build quality and the engineering put into them. Also, no, the manufacturers don't buy their designs from China. Acer might, since their stuff constantly breaks, but I highly doubt Toshiba or Dell do. Though Dell's used to break quite often in the earlier days, more recent designs have proven more resilient. The layout of the components is quite logical compared to an Acer. As for Compaq, my sister had one who's PCI-e bus failed. It was a common problem on all compaqs made that year which reared it's ugly head around the third year of consistent use. A year after the warranty went out.

That said, I'm still no fan of Dell. Toshiba's have proven to have the best track record for me, and I know many people who are satisfied customers of ASUS.

Also, you might want to take Apple products into account here. They are very much PC's in every sense of the word. They can run Windows and Linux just like every other laptop out there. And, like many other manufacturers, they design their products in-house and have them built in China. Apple is able to achieve such a high level of quality in spite of out-sourcing to China because, contrary to popular belief, China is capable of quite high levels of quality control. The only problem is, that unless you're a really big customer (like Apple), they won't care too much about your requests in regards to quality control.

Brand matters very much so because the quality control for each brand's products varies between brands. The core components may be the same, but the design of the PCB's and the choice in quality of passive and supportive active components makes a big difference.

If you want some evidence to back this up, take a look at some of Square Trade's observations of their 3rd party warranty business. In terms of how often problems occur in their products, and the general longevity of said products, Square Trade found out that Asus, Sony Vaio, Toshiba, and Apple were (in that order) the highest-quality brands their customers purchased.

If you want to be cheap and only pay $500 for your Core i7 laptop with 8GB of RAM and a 750GB HDD, go ahead. But don't expect it to last you more than three or four years at best. As for my friend who spent $4k on his Macbook Pro (personally I think that's a bit overkill, but I digress), he's basically gotten an entirely new laptop out of it thanks to Apple's wonderful warranty program. The only reason the parts on his laptop failed (motherboard, DVD drive, battery) was because he used the hell out of that thing. He's an IT guy, and at a couple points in time, he used the laptop as a temporary server during OS upgrades and migrations. He got the Laptop in 2008, so the warranty just went out last year, but he's been easier on it lately since he doesn't need to rely on it so much. Even so, he still uses it daily, and will likely continue to do so for another two years or so. 5-7 years for a $4000 laptop? Not bad at all. Though you could also spend $1200-$1500 on a really nice Asus and have it last nearly as long. Though the warranty program isn't anywhere near as good as Apples.

That's another thing. When you buy a laptop, you're also buying the service of the company who designed it. Now, you can either buy something from Acer and deal with their wonderful tech support who lives in India and barely speaks english, or you can buy something from Apple and deal with their tech support who lives in California and speaks english perfectly. Though I suppose it doesn't matter since "all brands are the same" and therefor their tech support is too. Hah.


As for batteries, it's a commonly accepted notion that over charging a Li-Ion/Li-Poly battery is just as bad as running it dry, The key to long battery life is charging consistently but in moderation. For phones, it's usually best to charge them over night. However, there's no sense in charging it while your at your desk at work, as that will merely stress the battery unnecessarily.


As for my suggestions in purchases, while I think Apple's laptops are a great investment if you can afford them, most people can't. My dad couldn't when he was shopping for a laptop for my sister (to replace the Compaq that crapped out), nor could he when he was shopping for one for my mother. In both cases, I helped him find very good Toshiba laptops that fit both of their needs. My sister's even has some really nice Harmon/Kardon speakers, which sound just as good as a Mac's. It's also got a Core i5, an Nvidia 430M GPU, and a 15" screen with a 1440x900 resolution. All for around $750-$800. My mom's is much more bare-bones with a Pentium class CPU (same 1st-gen Core i series though) and integrated graphics, but it has the same resolution screen, great battery life, and an eSATA port to boot. No fancy speakers though.

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that while I agree that you needn't spend tons of money on a laptop, you should absolutely consider quality as a factor, and unless you only need something really simple for browsing the web and watching a few videos (with headphones), you should expect to spend between $750 and $900 for a good laptop with discrete graphics. Though you can get good-quality laptops that are less powerful for anywhere from $600-$700.
 

Adwait Kulkarni

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Hi,
Great thread, just went through it in full.

I will be starting grad college in fall '12 but need a laptop right now because my old compaq is falling apart.
I plan to use the laptop for work (I got a job after my under-grad) and eventually in college (masters in computer science and maybe a Ph.D too). So my laptop will have to handle programming for average running time of 8-10hrs a day for the next 4-6 years. I want a solid keyboard. Gaming is not at all important.

I had my eye on a Lenovo T-420
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=411810&CatId=4939

Is this a good selection?

Thanks in advance,
Adwait
 

malvina

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Hi Avro, I've been reading this with interest. Have recently bought an Aspire 5750 Notebook 640 GB Blue tooth intel core. Also a new LCD Samsung tv (non Blue Tooth I thought it was)
I am an 'oldie' with little tech knowledge. Can I get simple instructions to connect the 2 together rather than pay a tech to come in?
thanks a lot
 

cbrunnem

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your laptop should have an hdmi out port and your tv should have a hdmi input port. buy a hdmi cord and plug and play.

for what reasons are you plugging in your laptop to a tv?
 

edslittleworld

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Avro Arrow...I appreciate this info. I'm a bit of a notebook computer enthusiast and will buy a new one just to try out. However, I'm becoming dismayed on the lack of quality features on newer models. I have bought around six new notebooks over the past 1.5 years and none match the quality of this 3 year old Toshiba (keyboard smoothness, media controls, WiFi speed, fingerprint scan, overall speed, looks, etc)....except for a MacBook and I don't like the quirkiness of the OS X. I even bought an Asus G74 gaming computer and was appalled at the keyboard cheapness.

What do you recommend for a nice semi-fast notebook computer with a velvety backlit keyboard, NON-widescreen display, and decent performance?
 

Avro Arrow

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I'll be honest with you, the quality level of laptops in general has really gone down over the last 10 years because unlike my old Dell Latitude C610 which was made in Japan, or the IBM Thinkpads that were made in the USA, all laptops are now made in China and are generally made to last 5 years tops. I wouldn't recommend a MacBook unless you were doing professional-quality video or audio work simply because they're the standard for it and the entire industry uses them. Honestly, I must stick to my guns and recommend a laptop powered by the AMD A8-3500M Llano APU. I went out and bought one for $500CAD and this thing (I'm typing on it right now) can play Skyrim and Crysis 2. Under a certain price point, avoid Intel-based laptops like the plague if you want balanced computing with any level of acceptable gameplay because having an Intel GPU in that situation would be like having an albatross around your neck. As Charlie Demerjian so bluntly put it, "Intel has never produced properly functioning drivers for any of its graphics products and it probably won't anytime soon." so if you intend to do ANY 3D gaming of any kind with a budget of under $800, you're probably going to have to get a Llano like I did. What you're describing to me as far as the velvety screen and backlit keyboard sounds like a Gateway. Gateway laptops are Acer's "Pretty" series kind of like Alienware laptops are Dell's "Pretty" series. As far as finding a non-widescreen display in a modern laptop, I don't think you'll find one. I haven't seen one in years. In fact, my last laptop was widescreen and I bought it almost 4 years ago, although it was the PC standard 16:10 instead of the HD cinema standard of 16:9 like all modern laptops. The 4:3 laptop has gone the way of the Dodo unless Dell and/or Lenovo still offer them as business-only models.
 

drees

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Thanks very much for the comments (and video), which I find quite helpful. I am shopping for a new laptop, and have pretty much decided on a desktop replacement. 95-98% of the time my computer stays on my desktop; but I do web designing, and occasionally like to take my computer to my customers' locations. So having a measure of portability is an important factor, and I don't really like the idea of having two computers.

Basically I love AMD. I happen to think that Jerry Sanders is one of the great men of our time. IMHO AMD is all that keeps Intel focussed on consumers' needs--and without it, we'd all be paying $4000+ for our laptops. AMD has worked miracles in keeping up as well as it has against much better financed competition. But, having said all of that, I must say that I've had two AMD chips burn out on me, and have never had a problem with an Intel chip. Granted that was some time ago, and maybe the llano chips are better, but I'm not sure I want to bet the farm on it.

Most of the people I know don't use a computer for anything more strenuous than surfing the net, reading their email, and word processing. I keep preaching to them that they don't really need much of a computer to do those things. I have even suggested to some of them that they get a REALLY CHEAP CRAPPY desktop computer from the Salvation Army and experiment and abuse the Hell out of it--it is a very cheap way to learn about computers. Even though I am a Windows person, I also tell many of them to get a Mac if they can afford it. There are fewer hassles: the Mac OS is more stable, and they don't have to worry much about malware. Almost always, they disregard my advice. Most of them want something brand new, and they can usually find a Windows computer for a lot less money at places like Best Buy.

I have a friend who falls into the above category. He is currently running an old home-built desktop computer with an AMD Athlon chip and built-in graphics. It seems like every week he calls me up to say "Help! My computer isn't running!" Last week he got a nasty virus on his computer that redirected his browser (Firefox) to some Chinese site. I went over to find that his AV program had long since expired, and he hadn't run a scan for months in any case. I put in a trial version of Kaspersky, ran a scan, and fixed the problem. I also told him that I'd be over at least once a week to keep his AV updated, and run a scan. Then he called again, equally frantic. It seems that Outlook Express had "lost" most of his emails. I went over and (somehow!) found a way to fix that problem. I also INSISTED that he get an 8gb flash memory stick to back up all of his data (it only cost $9.95 at Office Depot). A day later, he called again (this time at 10 PM as I was getting ready to go to bed). His computer would freeze up whenever he tried to start it. I don't really know what caused that problem, but when I started the computer up in safe mode and ran a system restore, it seemed to work OK. That's where things stand at the moment. If he had a Mac, I don't think any of this would have happened! What did I get for all this technical support? Two lousy packs of cigarettes!!
 
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I need to run Computer aided Design and Computer aided Programming (CNC Machine G code generators) software for my Manufacturing consulting business. For example AutoCad and Virtual Gibbs. I recently leased a Dell i3 2GB ram and it could not handle it. Please advise. Do I need a high end gamer machine? info@completecncsolutions.com My name is John
 

cbrunnem

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dont leave your email. i would edit and remove it.

did our old laptop have 100% ram usage of what? tbh avrow is going to recommend you something that is good for todays use but not for tmr's us to whatever he recommends get a little bit more.

personally i would like some more info regarding how your old laptop didnt perform as you would like.

it sounds like you didnt have enough ram though.