General Laptop Advice From An Old Pro.

Avro Arrow

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Alright, you've made up your mind to get a craptop, errr.... laptop and you're looking at all the different brands and configurations, scratching your head and wondering "WTH have I gotten myself into?" FEAR NOT DEAR FRIENDS! As a former salesman at tigerdirect.ca I can give you completely unbiased and truthful information, hopefully I can dispel a lot of myths surrounding laptop purchases.

Myth #1 - Processing power is all-important.

Actually, as with everything else, it completely depends on the application. Most people who buy laptops buy them for school or for work. Some buy them as their primary computer because they don't have a lot of room at home and so they assume that they need a powerful processor in order to do the everyday tasks they bought the laptop to do. The fact is, 90% of what people do on computers hasn't really changed since the days of Windows 95. Hardware has advanced much faster than software has. I was browsing with netscape and internet exploder back when I had a Pentium-I. You can't tell me that office applications need much either. I was using WordPerfect with an original IBM PC! LOL

Myth #2 - Brand matters

This is one of my favourites because it REALLY shows just how ignorant human beings can be. As someone who sold these things for a living at one of the largest computer retailers in Canada (hell, in North America) I can tell you a few things about the marketing behind the laptops and help you cut through all the BS.

The only difference between one brand and another is appearance (and sometimes quirky features that few people, if any, ever use). Laptops are like people, under the skin we're all pretty much the same. No matter what brand the laptop is, whether it's Acer, HP, Dell, Gateway, Lenovo, Compaq, ASUS, eMachines, Alienware, MSI, Toshiba or Packard-Bell, they're all made with the same internals from Intel, AMD, VIA, ARM, nVidia, ATi, Seagate, Hitachi, Western Digital, Foxconn, etc. They're also ALL MADE IN CHINA which means that most likely that they didn't even design the thing to begin with, they just bought the rights to a Chinese design, threw their name on it and marketed the hell out of it in North America. Also keep in mind that Acer owns Gateway, eMachines and Packard-Bell while HP owns Compaq and Dell owns Alienware. If you think they don't try to keep as many common parts as possible to keep costs down and profits up, you really should give your head a shake. Specs such as Hard Drive Space, RAM, Operating System, WiFi type, Bluetooth Compatibility, LED vs. Fluorescent backlighting and display size are the specs you should be looking at. Battery life is also a consideration but be sure to check how much a replacement battery will cost because you will most likely be replacing the battery at least once in the lifetime of your laptop. A battery with double the life might cost 5x the price to replace. No battery lives forever. Typically, eBay is the best source for replacement batteries.

Myth #3 - School home/laptops should be expensive to make sure they don't become obsolete.

This is the biggest pile of crap I've ever heard. I attend university and I use an eMachines E620-5885. Here's the specs:

CPU: Athlon 64 2650e 1.6GHz Single-Core
RAM: 2GB DDR2
Hard Drive: 160GB SATA
Graphics: ATi Radeon X1200
WiFi: Wireless-G
OS: Originally Vista Home Basic (gasp!), downgraded to XP Professional (Thank god!)
Optical: Dual-Layer DVD-RW

This machine (which I am typing on as we speak), from a specs perspective is rather primitive. The question is, since it runs everything I want it to (including most online games), why do I need to worry? Word and Powerpoint both work perfectly and probably would on an old Pentium-1. Programs like that, along with Firefox and other browsers were originally designed for much older machines and so even a machine like mine will be perfect for the average user who surfs the net, plays light games and does schoolwork. Even my old Pentium-3 laptop does these things. (I upgraded because after 9 years, it was physically falling apart but I use it for my magic jack now.) Believe me, my ATi X1200 is one of the LOWEST-scoring GPUs in benchmark tests but it's still fine.

Myth #4 - You should periodically drain your laptop battery completely and charge it up again

Hell no, you don't want to do that. Lithium-Ion batteries are not like the old Nickel-Cadmium rechargeables. They do not develop a memory from unscheduled charging and do NOT respond well to deep-cycling (draining completely and then recharging). That will kill a Lithium-Ion cell almost as fast as too much heat. Ideally, you would keep it plugged in all the time and the battery would last forever (which would defeat the purpose of having a laptop) but as long as you never drain it completely it will last for years. There isn't a huge difference between running it down to 10% as opposed to charging it from 90% from a battery life standpoint but keeping it as fully charged as possible at all times will make the battery more or less immortal.

Myth #5 - Intel is better than AMD / AMD is better than Intel

Again, your application makes all the difference here. If you do actual heavy-duty computing like video encoding, machine virtualization, etc. Then yes, Intel is the way to go. If, on the other hand, you don't want it for the aforementioned reasons, then AMD is the way to go. Here's my explanation:

Intel's mobile CPUs are superior in processing power to AMD's in the same price range. That means that they are better for heavy multitasking (I mean a LOT of tasks because all CPUs can multitask reasonably well, even single-cores, remember the Athlon 64?) but they have a serious thorn in their side, namely, the Intel GMA series graphics processors. Intel used to offset this with outstanding battery life by using their Centrino technology but AMD's Llano-based laptops have up to double the battery life of Intel's newest offerings anyway. If all you do is simple tasks at home like banking, surfing the web, playing music and watching movies, well, we were doing those exact things back in the days of Windows 95 with our Pentium I's and 486DX4-100's! You don't need serious power for that. Hell, my OLD Dell Latitude C610 with an ORIGINAL Mobility Radeon M6 having only 16MB of dedicated video RAM and 512MB of PC100 SDRAM plays NHL games streamed from cbc.ca FLAWLESSLY! Keep in mind that 2D graphics such as movies and photo editing are a snap for even the old ATi Rage and nVidia TNT2 series cards. Modern notebook GPUs are far more powerful than that.

AMD's Llano-based Sabine notebook platform looks to be the best thing out there right now for general use and light to moderate gaming with its APU (CPU and GPU combined). The AMD APU seems to be a fantastic design and received rave reviews right here on Tom's Hardware and on Legit Reviews for its graphics capabilities and very low power consumption. When it comes to gaming, the AMD A8-3500M has literally DOUBLE the battery life of the Intel i5-2520M and delivers far better graphics performance than Intel's crappy graphics processor while still remaining less expensive. The A8 laptop will also run for almost 8 hours if all you're doing is reading a document. The specifics are available here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/a8-3500m-llano-apu,2959.html
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1636/1/

Netbooks:

Netbooks are almost all essentially the same with the Intel Atom 1.6GHz CPU,1GB RAM, 160GB HD, XP Home and Intel graphics. The only way to distinguish one from the other is through battery life and warranty. In the same price category you can expect them all to have the same specs. If there's one you like the look of better than the rest, then go for it but don't expect a performance difference between them unless you're willing to cough up extra $$$ for an SSD or faster CPU. Make sure you know what battery you're getting because some manufacturers bundle a 3-cell Lithium-Ion battery and some bundle a 6-cell Lithium-Ion battery. As before, be sure to find out what the price is for a replacement. Again, eBay is the best source for that.

Laptops vs. Desktops:

If you're thinking of buying a super-powerful laptop, I implore you not to. Laptops cannot be upgraded and are therefore technological dead-ends. For the price of a super-powerful laptop, you could pick up a desktop that is equal to or more powerful than the super-powerful laptop you're looking at AND get a $500 laptop for the same price. If you just need the laptop for mobility, then this combo is the way to go.

I hope this helps you wade through the sea of marketing BS and expensive sparkly glitter. Remember, a laptop is NOT a fashion statement unless you have money to burn. I know I don't and you probably don't either, take care.

If you have any questions about Laptops (or desktops for that matter), send me a private message and I'll do whatever I can to help you. :D
SOURCES: notebookcheck.net, cpubenchmark.net

If you like what you read here, please post a reply so that this thread doesn't get buried. I'd like it to be stickied but nobody answers me.
 

falseg0d

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I found the intel vs AMD section very helpful to me. I always hear about Intel is better than AMD, or AMD is better than Intel, but thanks for clearing up which is better for what.
 

Avro Arrow

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I wouldn't say bogus as much as I'd say "That's what their test subjects said." I've seen Consumer Reports say that Apple Macbooks are the sturdiest. I bet if they took a different group of people and did the same test they'd have a different result. I'm not sure you might have thought of that. After all, 30,000 units over 3 years is a drop in the bucket in regard laptop sales, even for one year. There's no real way to accurately gauge what's best and what's worst. I just decided to go by the customers I spoke to who previously owned laptops and no brand was complained about more or less than any other. At least, not that I could notice. As a result, regardless of this test, I stand by my statement that I do not believe that one is significantly more reliable than another. Again, internals are all made in China by Foxconn, MSI, ASUS, nVidia, ATi, Intel, AMD, etc. All these companies do is assemble them, or as I said before, in a lot of cases, they just slap their name on them. If you don't believe me, here's solid evidence:

Acer Aspire 5515:

eMachines E620:

Yes, of course I know that Acer owns eMachines, I do believe I stated that in the original post, but you can't tell me that this isn't ridiculous. These two laptops were sold in the same marketplace (The Tiger Direct store I worked at) with the same specs at different prices. I ought to know, I bought one. :sol:
 
Thanks for your reply!
So basically the study I pointed out isn't any less valid than your opinion.
And for what it's worth, the study wasn't based on "That's what their test subjects said." It was based on statistics compiled by a company that provides extended warranties, not opinions. So if push comes to shove, and I HAD to choose, I'd still find their statistics to most likely be more valid than your unquantified opinion (no concrete statistics). Granted, 30,000 units IS a drop in the bucket, but isn't it still likely to be more accurate than "I didn't notice a particular brand being complained about more than any other"?

Maybe I misunderstood your meaning regarding Consumer Reports. But it is not like they take folks off the street and ask for their uneducated opinions. They have well trained staffers that perform all these tests supposedly as impartially as possible. Although I suppose a criteria such as "sturdiest" is somewhat subjective and opinion based.

As you stated, with so few companies actually putting these things together, perhaps the figures quoted in the study I mentioned can be chalked up to random chance, and are no true indicators of reliability. I don't know what to think, lol.

Just to be clear, it is not my intention to bust your chops. I found your article well thought out and informative. The more I think about it, the more I think you've somewhat swayed me to your point of view regarding reliability. I need to ponder this further.

Thanks. :D
 

Avro Arrow

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I appreciate questions being asked, no need to worry about busting my chops..lol As you saw on the test, there was only a 10% variance from first to last so yeah, it could be just random chance. The thing that must be remembered is that these companies are in the business of making money and under capitalism, corporations are required under law to maximise profits and the dividends to their shareholders. As a result, the low bid almost always wins. They know that these laptops don't have to be THAT sturdy because technology advances so fast that most people would rather buy a new one than have theirs repaired. As a result, a lot of them get from the same suppliers who offer their products for the least money. Most industries are like that. Brand marketing has taken over almost every sector of the economy, even automobiles! I'm glad that you're doing research, it's very important to go out and get informed before making a purchase because it minimises the chances of your getting royally screwed, good man! :D

Speaking of brand marketing, this should make you laugh, I know I was howling:

NOTE: This is NOT a hoax or a fake, Toyota really DID sell the Chevrolet Cavalier as a Toyota in Japan! :sol:
 
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You should make a video, it might go viral...

Am looking at gaming specs, well I want a top GPU (GTX 460M) and for the first time in my life, I'll go for a non-mainstream brand. So what are your thoughts on Asus, Sager or MSI?
 

Avro Arrow

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I've never heard of Sager but that wouldn't be a problem, this is not rocket science it's laptop sales...lol

Honestly, I've used ASUS motherboards and vidcards and I've used MSI motherboards (never had an MSI vidcard though) and I'd say... 6 of one, half dozen of the other. They're both very good names and i'm sure that Sager is too. I'd recommend whichever one gives you the best price. If you're in North America, newegg has a great deal on an ASUS with a Phenom II X4 P920 CPU and an ATi Mobility Radeon 5730 GPU for only $780. Good deals can be found out there for gaming laptops but remember, once you pass that magical $900 mark, the laws of diminishing returns kicks in and you pay exponentially more for exponentially less. Remember this and remember it well, BRAND IS JUST AN INSIGNIA. Underneath, they're all AMD, Intel, nVidia, ATi and VIA parts.

A simple metaphorical question to prove my point. Who has proven to have the highest quality video cards in the last 5 years? XFX, Sapphire, EVGA, Powercolor, Sparkle, HIS, BFG Palit or Galaxy?

I rest my case.

Buy your laptop the way you'd buy a graphics card. Ignore the brand and look at the specs. I will say this though... from an overall performance standpoint, an AMD Llano-based laptop will give you the most for your money at price points under $1000.

GOOD HUNTING! :D
 
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Haha this quote is a keeper "you pay exponentially more for exponentially less."

Dude make a video, seems like u know what u r talking and fed up of getting ripped off. I made this youtube clip for the same reason http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qE5IQ9tyAE and a step beyond that would be to discuss actual brands and what's under the hood.

I have a dream, "greedy laptop makers left with unsold piles 'coz people aren't that easily conned anymore" lol :D
 

Avro Arrow

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I saw the video and I have to say it was very well put together. I agree with most of what you said (not all) but I won't say what I disagree with. What program did you use to make the voice? I could tell it was fake but it was still pretty damn cool. :sol
 

Avro Arrow

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Haha this quote is a keeper "you pay exponentially more for exponentially less."

Dude make a video, seems like u know what u r talking and fed up of getting ripped off. I made this youtube clip for the same reason http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qE5IQ9tyAE and a step beyond that would be to discuss actual brands and what's under the hood.

I have a dream, "greedy laptop makers left with unsold piles 'coz people aren't that easily conned anymore" lol :D
I saw the video and I have to say it was very well put together. I agree with most of what you said (not all) but I won't say what I disagree with. What program did you use to make the voice? I could tell it was fake but it was still pretty damn cool. :sol
 

Truckman

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Great article and cool video. Avro, I'd recommend doing a video based on your article, too.

That said, I just started looking for a laptop and have been doing some serious searching in the last 2 days. Apparently I've been looking in all the wrong places. :ange: The first one to catch my eye was the ASUS A52F-X1, seen here: ASUS A52F-X1 It seemed to me the most bang for the buck, however it is at the very top of my budget of $500 - $700.

The use will be for general online surfing, watching videos and movies, homework, MS Access/PowerPoint/Word/Excel. I can use my desktops for the video conversion and dvd burning I do. This particular model has a blu-ray player, but that's not a necessity - it will be my first blu-ray player so I was thinking of using it to play BR dvd's on TV using the HDMI out. It does seem to be about the only 7200rpm HDD laptop in my price range.

Any other suggestions or recommendations? Or should I go for this one (especially since it's about $350 less than MSRP)?
 

Avro Arrow

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Honestly, that machine will be just fine but it kinda seems like overkill for what you want. You said yourself that you plan to use your desktops for video conversion (which is a smart choice because laptops cannot match the power of desktops) and I don't really see anything there that would be of great use. The Blu-Ray player is a cool thing but I believe that Blu-Ray discs will eventually go the way of the Dodo and everything will use flash drives instead. Using it as a Blu-Ray player will be a cool thing but keep in mind that you have working desktops and a Blu-Ray drive is only about $100. Since this is your first Blu-Ray player I can assume that you don't have any Blu-Rays yet and are therefore in no real hurry for them. You didn't mention gaming at all so the crappy Intel Graphics Media Accelerator will do all you need it to. The one thing about that laptop that gives me pause is the maximum resolution. For a laptop of that calibre, I hardly believe that 1366x768 is a decent resolution. What is the point of having a Blu-Ray player when the screen itself doesn't support 1080p resolution? There's no doubt that it's a great price for an i5 so it will be wickedly fast, assuming that you ever do anything strenuous enough with it to notice it's great power. I'd say that's a good buy, I can't say otherwise but I can tell that ASUS sunk everything into the CPU on that machine and seems to have skimped on everything else. I don't know where you got the idea that it's a 7200RPM hard drive though because it says right in the specs that it's 5400RPM.

I've compared Tiger Direct to other companies and they're absolute crap now(Having worked there helps me evaluate them accurately) which is a shame because they used to be quite good. Having said that, I still think that newegg or NCIX will give you a much better deal. If I had the money you're talking about to spend on a laptop, I'd be more likely to buy this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220753
This has a Phenom II X3 which will feel exactly the same as the i5 for what you're doing but it has other major advantages:
500GB Hard Drive instead of 320GB
ATi Mobility Radeon HD 5470 dedicated graphics card instead of the Intel Intel Graphics Media Accelerator HD chipset (Which can be found in laptops that cost under $500)
17.3" display instead of 15.6"
Max resolution of 1600x900 instead of 1366x768
It's $50 less and has free shipping to the continental USA.

Now, to compare the CPUs... The Intel Core i5-450M 2.4GHz is a dual-core CPU with hyperthreading. The AMD Phenom II X3 N830 2.1GHz is a triple-core without hyperthreading. They both have a TDP of 35W. It's hard to quantify overall CPU performance because one CPU will excel in one area and the other will excel in another area. As a result, I took the scores from every single test that notebookcheck.net performs, added them together and divided them by the number of tests to get the overall average score of the CPU, rounded to the nearest integer. I did the time in seconds scores separately. You can check notebookcheck.net to verify my results if you like.

Intel i5-450M 2.4GHz:
Average score -> 10725 (higher is better)
Average test time -> 22 seconds (lower is better)

AMD Phenom II X3 N830 2.1GHz:
Average score -> 7069 (higher is better)
Average test time - > 34 seconds (lower is better)

The i5, overall is about 52% faster than the Phenom II in notebookchecks tests. This is significant for anything that you plan to do that actually will use that power. For normal things like windows startup, web browsing and office work, there will be no real discernible difference. For instance, something that takes the i5 4 seconds to load, it will take the Phenom II 6 seconds (on average) which is something that I doubt you'll ever notice. Hell, I use an AMD Athlon X1 2650e single-core CPU and I'm happy as a clam with it, even if I do use XP pro on it...lol

Now to compare the GPUs... I'll do the same thing I did with the CPU tests and we can see what the results are. I will show a total average GPU score and I'll show a gaming framerate comparison using Crysis at low XGA and then at high XGA. I know Crysis is ridiculously high-end but it's the only gaming test that notebookcheck.net did on both GPUs and I like to compare apples to apples.

Intel Graphics Media Accelerator HD:
Average Score -> 2792 (higher is better)
Crysis low XGA frame rate -> 23fps (higher is better)
Crysis high XGA frame rate -> Failed

ATi Mobility Radeon HD 5470:
Average score -> 6543 (higher is better)
Crysis low XGA frame rate -> 53fps (higher is better)
Crysis high XGA frame rate -> 11fps (higher is better)

Overall, the HD 5470 represents a 132% increase in performance over the GMA HD. Yes, that is an INCREASE of 132% which means that the 5470 runs at 2.32x the speed of the GMA. This is a major equaliser, in fact it does more than equalise from some points of view. You see, there is nothing that the i5 can do that the Phenom II can't, it just takes about 52% longer to do it as the i5 runs at 1.52x the speed of the Phenom II. However, as demonstrated there are things that the 5470 can do that the GMA simply can't. That's why it failed to run Crysis at high XGA. I am also aware of problems with the Intel graphics drivers when one is trying to play Sims 3. I took care of a question over at Yahoo! Answers from a girl who can't get Sims 3 to run on her Intel GMA even though it supposedly exceeds the minimum requirements of the game. That leads me to believe that an unstable driver is the main culprit. With just plain weak performance and crappy drivers in a cheap graphics chipset, it leads me to believe that there are a lot of computer-ignorant people out there because they are buying them. Unfortunately, many of them end up being sorry they did.

Ok, my fingers are officially falling off from all this typing. I hope this long-winded (and probably overly-detailed) post tells you everything you need to know. I think I'll go to bed now.

Thanks for the compliment about thinking I should make a video. You humble me sir! :sol:
 

Truckman

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Wow. Thanks for the fantastic reply!

I like that ASUS you linked to, and reading your post (several times) prompted me to search a little. I'm not quite sure how you got to your #'s when comparing the GPU's so I couldn't quite do the same comparison; and quite honestly I found all the numbers overwhelming. I found these two Acer units with the ATI Mobility Radeon 5650 which as far as I can tell is a slightly better card than the 5470 in the ASUS - notebookcheck classifies the 5650 as a Class 2 and the 5470 as a Class 3. For my applications though I may not notice the difference since I won't be doing any high-end gaming.
Acer Aspire AS7741G-7017 - seems to be the best of both worlds: the slightly faster i5 with a dedicated GPU
Acer Aspire AS7551G-6477 - more comparable to the ASUS you found but $30 more.

The ASUS seems to be more of a "sale" (higher savings) but in a side by side by side comparison of the 3 above, I can't find why it was $70 - $100 more to begin with. On asthetics alone, I do like the looks of the ASUS better, though.

ETA: What does this mean? "ATI Mobility Radeon™ HD 4250 Graphics with 256MB-1405MB dynamically allocated shared graphics memory"
 
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Both Acers have 5400rpm drives, this is 30% slower than a 7200rpm model. If you went for the Acer, then in year-2 you will spend extra on a 7200rpm drive and maybe on a CPU updgrade if you feel like getting under the hood.

I don't like the sound of dynamically allocated memory. It could mean taking away from the RAM (and that the GPU comes with only 256MB standard). You want the GPU to have its own memory, GDDR3 or GDDR5 type.
 

Truckman

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Both Acers have 5400rpm drives, this is 30% slower than a 7200rpm model. If you went for the Acer, then in year-2 you will spend extra on a 7200rpm drive and maybe on a CPU updgrade if you feel like getting under the hood.

I don't like the sound of dynamically allocated memory. It could mean taking away from the RAM (and that the GPU comes with only 256MB standard). You want the GPU to have its own memory, GDDR3 or GDDR5 type.
It seems 90% - 95% of what I'm finding has a 5400rpm drive. The few I come across (only seem to be the HP models) sacrifice the stand-alone graphics card for the integrated one. I built one of my own on HP's website, opting for the Core i3-380 CPU, 500GB 7200rpm HDD, ATI Radeon 5650 1GB GPU, and 6GB RAM (FREE upgrade from 4GB to 6GB) for $750 (-$200 instant savings off "list"). AMD was not an option. That puts me $50 over budget, $100 over the others I was looking at, not counting shipping. And, I'm now learning that my budget may be getting cut. UGH!!! Me, I'd rather shell out the extra $$ now and be set for 3-5 years. I don't need the cutting edge, but also don't want to be outdated shortly after purchase (such as in the $300-$500 range).
 
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Wait for the discount period. Isn't black friday today or something?

My priority list would be a good dedicated GPU and a CPU that's more than 2GHz. The hard-drive can be upgraded, lots of shops sell cheap 2.5" drives these days... and maybe u could sell the old 5400 to recuperate some of the cost.

How about $780? ASUS N52DA-X1
-ATI HD 5730 1GB DDR3
-AMD Phenom II Quad-Core P920 (1.6GHz) <~~~had no idea it didn't have a great review
-4GB DDR3 RAM
-500GB 7200rpm
 

Avro Arrow

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Wait for the discount period. Isn't black friday today or something?

My priority list would be a good dedicated GPU and a CPU that's more than 2GHz. The hard-drive can be upgraded, lots of shops sell cheap 2.5" drives these days... and maybe u could sell the old 5400 to recuperate some of the cost.

How about $780? ASUS N52DA-X1
-ATI HD 5730 1GB DDR3
-AMD Phenom II Quad-Core P920 (1.6GHz) <~~~had no idea it didn't have a great review
-4GB DDR3 RAM
-500GB 7200rpm
Any Quad-Core CPU in a laptop is going to do well. As I had stated, my own laptop has a single-core and it works perfectly fine. The major thing is the Mobility Radeon HD 5730. That's one powerful mobile GPU and there's no way that the Phenom II X4 P920 is going to bottleneck it which means that the ASUS N52DA-X1 will be a great gaming laptop. :sol:
 
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