Google Chimes in to EU vs. Microsoft Fight

[T-Bone]

[citation][nom]spiralsun1[/nom]Google is the real monster -- they are the search engine octopus of people with a very real, anti-majority political agenda. It was started by 2 Jews and the Jews hate that microsoft controls so much. Why is this scary? See Dr.s Walt and Mearsheimers (Harvard and University of Chicago) "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy" and probably the most life-changing book I ever read: Dr. Kevin MacDonald's "The Culture of Critique: An Evolutionary Analysis of Jewish Involvement in Twentieth-Century Intellectual and Political Movements" (paperback). THIS IS REAL, and this is truly scary -- way beyond economic "unfairness".[/citation]
Oh yeah...I heard it all before...13 jews control the world from a cave in israel. But you need to brush up on your antisemitic rhetoric because if you did you'd find out that Bill Gates is also a jew! The plots & conspiracies thicken! Or maybe you shouldn't be such a racist prick & STFU & stick to what the article's about.

 

[Guest]

The consensus is overwhelming that this issue is pathetic. What a bunch of bullshit politics and love for money greedy abusers of power. IE is the fastest browser out there! Oh boohoo it is a default option when you install windows. Safari is this decades netscrape, sucks horribly. Chrome is ok, but lots of incompatibility issues, but its nice and has tons of potential. firefox is awesome and they have made a massive mark. Every other browser is not worth mentioning and that isn't M$ fault.....

Innovation?!?!?! What the hell do you think firefox, the non M$ browser, did? Oh that's right they called a lot of attention to plugins and security and even what is now standard everywhere, tabbed windows. Don't try to pull the "we can't be innovative" card because there is plenty of innovation going on in the browser market. gg, move on.

 

[blackened144]

[citation][nom]Trac3r[/nom]Without IE preinstalled, how would I download Firefox?[/citation]
wget

 

[jah_33]

It's a misconception the IE is free, do you think Microsoft includes IE in windows as a gift?

You are in fact forced to pay for IE as you buy Windows no mater if you intend to use it or not. And this is the problem.

 

[Guest]

Classic government getting involved in business when government should only be involved in paving our damn roads. Just as the US government forced the banking industry in to doing business their way by forcing the banks to lend to people who couldn't afford their homes and are all now foreclosing and exploding the mortgage bubble and causing so much of this economic bullshit we are experiencing. So is the EU trying to do to M$ by trying to tell them how to create their very own software. I agree that M$ should just pull any and all business from the EU and see how they function with their worthless leftovers that can't come to close to meeting the same over scrutinized standards that M$ sets. They are a powerhouse for a reason! Everyone and their dog uses M$ products for a reason! This is never going to go away though, it's only to get worse as more and more marxists get power and start pumping in the marxist ways so people think all backwards and twisted like so much of the messed up EU.

 

[nekatreven]

Please raise your hand if you like the idea of the merger between Ticketmaster (the largest ticket distributor in the world) and LiveNation (the largest concert and event promoter/host in the US).

Almost EVERYONE you talk to (that is familiar with it) is PISSED. This is because that company will now control almost the entire concert and sporting event ticketing market and promotion market. Their merger will probably get shot down (I sure hope so).

Now...

If Internet Explorer was not already a Microsoft product and the largest browser maker tried to merge with the largest OS maker they would NEVER get through anti-trust review. They would not be allowed to merge due to their market share...as it would be anti competitive to every other OS maker and browser maker.

The fact that they started as one company does not remove the unfair advantage. Just because you are all used to it being that way and think it is okay does not make the problem go away.

Microsoft should have been split into an Operating System company and an Application company a decade ago.

Most people will not use what is better. They will use what is there. Heck, most people don't even know what a browser is and if you want them to get online for something you have to tell them to 'get on the Internet'. Don't say, "they should get another browser if they don't like it", when they don't know what a browser is (due to MS bundling the only browser they've ever known into their OS). Geesh.

Oh and if you think there is not a TON money in the browser market you are either naive or stupid...not sure which. Microsoft is a multi-billion dollar corporation and Mozilla is in the millions...they wouldn't all be bitching about it if it wasn't extremely profitable to them.

 

[Blessedman]

Lets say for instance that MS complies and they pre-install firefox. The EU would come down on them again saying its unfair to google to only include firefox... So your next OS will be 3 DVD's to install because every browser must be pre-installed! Isn't Blaupunkt like the top radio installed in 90% of vehicles made in Europe? Should car manufacturers be required to pre-install a sony, alpine, kenwood, pioneer... Beware the next requirement will be another messiah be added to the bible so people can have choices!

 

[bounty]

Why be unfair to the disk defragmentation market, or the file explorer market, media player, screen saver, solitaire, simple text editor, clock and ftp client markets? I demand that Microsoft only be allowed to sell us NTFS + kernel.

 

[nekatreven]

[citation][nom]bounty[/nom]Why be unfair to the disk defragmentation market, or the file explorer market, media player, screen saver, solitaire, simple text editor, clock and ftp client markets? I demand that Microsoft only be allowed to sell us NTFS + kernel.[/citation]

I can't deny you have a point. I can't say that there would be a good way to allow people to choose their browser. I'm just acknowledging that Microsoft's position does in fact give them an unfair advantage to all of the things you listed.

Third party defrag tools, the Total Commander explorer program, real player, WSFTP Pro, anyone who wants to make a crappy clone of MS paint...anyone who makes a tool for Windows that is already in Windows is at a disadvantage.

Again though, I accept the premise that if you do this to one app...where is the line? That is why I think MS should have been split into an OS and an app company.

My first instinct would be to rule based on MS's apparent intention with each product. Windows Media Player (the newer ones) is much more a standalone component of Windows now than before they got in trouble for that one. Netscape used to be included after the last time IE got them in trouble stateside and IE was less integrated. Now they are back to doing what they got in trouble for in the US.

If they have to change their actions based on whether or not they are getting sued at the time then I think they are in the wrong on that issue. The fact that they would do that (and have) is also disturbing.

Note that most of what you listed stayed the same the whole time.

 

[grieve]

ANYONE can just download the browser they would like to use!! I do not understand why there is any issues having IE pre-installed.

My only issue is that it is damn near impossible to get rid of IE if you want too.

 

[bounty]

Back in the days, Telco's were monopolies because they controled the only possible infrastructure. THAT is a monopoly. Being a strong player in computer operating systems doesn't seem to be in the same league.

Go buy a mac or go to newegg, build it and install Mandriva. Pick up an EEPC or use your phone to browse the web. Maybe an MP3 player/PDA or a PS3 is more your thing.

Nothing is stopping Google from innovating. If they invented some innovative interface and someone copied it, then fine sue them for that. I just don't buy the monopoly thing I guess. I see the market as being bigger than desktops you can buy at Walmart.

 

[nekatreven]

[citation][nom]grieve[/nom]ANYONE can just download the browser they would like to use!! I do not understand why there is any issues having IE pre-installed.My only issue is that it is damn near impossible to get rid of IE if you want too.[/citation]

If you've ever worked tech support of any form, and had to tell someone to 'open their web browser'...you know that what you said is not true. You have to say 'open Internet', or click on the blue 'E'.

Browsers are a market like anything else and they make their owners money. People don't know of other browsers, or even what a browser is because most have only seen one; the one that came on their computer.

By the counter argument people are making here, it would have been okay if Microsoft had been the one who had started AOL in its dial-up heyday. It would have just been two products Microsoft had.

...yet since they actually started separately, no one would have ever let them merge back when Microsoft was the only OS in the game and AOL had a very dominant market share. If AOL came on the computer they'd have an advantage (which is why AOL as a separate company paid PC manufactures for so long to make that happen).

It is just harder to see with IE, because both it and Windows have always come from Microsoft. As I said above...if they were separate companies today no one would let them become one; which means they shouldn't be one, regardless of anything else.

 

[ThePatriot]

This can be solved very easy:
No more MS products in the EU.

Can't wait for that day to happen

Time to go forward again.

 

[bounty]

If IE was on it's own w/o MS you believe IE would have a very small market share by your reasoning. So why couldn't MS buy a small browser company? That's like saying no one would ever let Google buy a map company.
MS is loosing market share in the browser space....... how is that a abusing a monopoly? It never was. A monopoly is a lock in. Their lack of browser market share is proof that they never had a monopoly. The MS antitrust case didn't cause Firefox to start making ground, it's just that someone finally had a good product.

To me if there was any abuse it was in the way Microsoft structured their contracts with OEMs which overly influenced them to use Windows exclusively. Netscape (the company) fell on it's sword, and the rest are growing just fine.

 

[nekatreven]

[citation][nom]bounty[/nom]If IE was on it's own w/o MS you believe IE would have a very small market share by your reasoning. So why couldn't MS buy a small browser company?[/citation]

Nowhere in my reasoning did I say anything as to what their market share would be if they were a separate company. I do think it would have been lower, but trying to guess by how much both is impossible and irrelevant. They wouldn't have been able to merge with ANY browser company because it would have given them the chance to use their market share in Windows to force out other browsers.

[citation]That's like saying no one would ever let Google buy a map company.[/citation]

Google already bought a map company: Keyhole. By the way, the whole issue with an OS having a browser included is that they are RELATED and the OS's market share dominance can benefit the browser via its inclusion since you need an OS and a browser to browse the web. Would you mind telling me how a person searching online for information on antelopes also requires an online service to find Wisconsin? Or how someone trying to find Wisconsin needs a service to find information on antelopes? Online search engines and online maps are two completely distinct markets that both Google and Yahoo are involved in. Them having an interest in one market does not readily contribute to the interests of the other. People don't get on Google and look up a map to Wisconsin and go, "ooooo look! a page on antelopes! how convenient!" ...So please don't make stupid arguments for the sake of talking.


[citation]MS is loosing market share in the browser space....... how is that a abusing a monopoly?[/citation]

The abuse of the monopoly is the only reason they have any market share left. Also, abuse of a monopoly does not have to work out like you want for it to qualify as an abuse of a monopoly. If you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger you don't get in trouble based on whether you hit them or not.

[citation]It never was. A monopoly is a lock in. Their lack of browser market share is proof that they never had a monopoly.[/citation]
The IE browser is still at over 65% market share and I'm sure Windows is still at least at 90%. This is after they've lost significant ground to Apple and Mozilla and Linus and company, among others; IE used to be in the ballpark of 80%. If you think that's not a monopoly I think I'm wasting my breath explaining.

 

[4c1dr41n]

Well, notepad is included in Windows, which is not fair with Notepad++, UltraEdit, GVIM, etc. Perhaps MS should ship its OS without a text editor.

 

[kamkal]

The only thing people should worry about is Microsoft trying to hijack WWW standards, that is the real threat. They try to do that in every area they are involved in where there are already agreed upon standards.

 

[PilotFrog]

Apple should watch out. I believe Safari comes preloaded on the Mac OS and the iPhone. That is anticompetitive as well.

 

[sandmanwn]

@ T-Bone and nekatreven

you two are some real jokes. I hope neither of you write any programs cause the first thing I'll do if this crap against MS goes through is develop a crappy alternative to your program and sue your dumb asses in EU court to include my software in yours. I'll reap all the benefits of your many years of hard work and there won't be shit you can do about it. Don't like it, too bad.

Do you understand how utterly stupid your argument sounds now?

 

[sandmanwn]

None of this BS makes sense. Why would anyone make a better browser after this. Any time you make a strive forward you have to bring your lame duck competition along for the ride.