Hacks to turn Series 2 units into stand-alone DVR?

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded on the
> box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement. One part of
> that agreement states that you only have license to the software as long
> as you have a subscription.

Not to mention that I'm sure that you agree *again* to the acceptable
use policy when you activate your service.

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Tony Clark wrote:
> Tivo apparently uses at least some proprietary code. What that is, I
have no
> idea. They also, from this statement under the terms and agreements
page,
> use some Open Source code as well:

You do know TiVo is built on Linux, right? And the Linux kernel (along
with the majority of its tools are all GPL).

See http/www.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp for what's GPL. Everything
else not listed is TiVo proprietary code.

> This statement would also seem to indicate that modifications to the
Open
> Source portions of Tivo as acceptable based on that last sentence.

Um, that's how the GPL works. You can't prevent people from modifying
it, that would be against the license agreement that comes with it.

> I agree completely that you would need to eliminate the Tivo
proprietary
> portions of code and hence the reason I asked about a hack to do
that. In my
> original post I may not have been clear but I tried to indicate that
I
> didn't need the functionality of the Tivo service, only the ability
to set a
> time and channel to record (manually like a VCR).
>
> So in my unofficial opinion, I see no theft of service

Ok, so look into MythTV running on a separate PC - you won't be able to
hack your TiVo to do what you want since you won't be able to get the
hardware to work for you without using TiVo's IP.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<in2sheep@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111108405.306858.196420@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Randy S. wrote:
>> > However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded
> on the
>> > box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement. One part
> of
>> > that agreement states that you only have license to the software as
> long
>> > as you have a subscription.
>>
>> Not to mention that I'm sure that you agree *again* to the acceptable
>
>> use policy when you activate your service.
>
> http/www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp
>
> "...TiVo retains title to and ownership of all the software for the
> TiVo DVR and certain intellectual property rights in the TiVo DVR..."
>
> So, even though you bought and own the hardware, the software isn't
> yours to do with as you please.
>

First off, that statement refers to the ownership of the software not the
USE of the software. You also left out this statement on the site that you
provided a link to

"Open Source Software. Certain components of the software for the TiVo DVR
are subject to the GNU General Public License or other so-called open source
licenses ("Open-Source Software"). Open Source Software is not subject to
the restrictions in the last sentence of Section 15 ("Title to Software and
Intellectual Property"), and is subject to the GNU General Public License
("GPL") or other license terms, as applicable. In compliance with the terms
of the GPL, TiVo makes its modifications to Open Source Software that TiVo
uses, modifies and distributes pursuant to the GPL available to the public
in source code form at www.tivo.com/source. You are free to use, modify and
distribute Open Source Software that is subject to the GPL so long as you
comply with the terms of the GPL (available in the product manual or at
www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html)."

Therefore it is clear from this statement that some of the software on the
Tivo unit is Open Source and may be freely modified per the GPL. The
question then would be what components of the Tivo software are Open Source
versus Tivo proprietary?

TC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:43:21 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:

> Therefore it is clear from this statement that some of the software on the
> Tivo unit is Open Source and may be freely modified per the GPL. The
> question then would be what components of the Tivo software are Open Source

The kernel. Check http/www.tivo.com/linux

> versus Tivo proprietary?

Everything else.

Enjoy!

--
Lenroc

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:d1bukr$vco$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
SNIP

>>
>>
>> Maybe we are talking semantics again, but I don't get the "theft of
>> service" argument. As I understand it, the Tivo software is built upon a
>> base of Linux code, to what extent I am not certain. If someone developed
>> a piece of code that would select a channel at a pre-determined time and
>> day and set the Tivo to record for some time period how would that be
>> theft of service? Not trying to argue the point, I just don't see how
>> it's theft. (Note that my example assumes some use of the Tivo software
>> that actually controls the video capture and recording mechanisms so it's
>> a bit different than your suggestion below.)
>
> Doesn't your agreement w/ point 1 imply acceptance of point 2? But I
> would also assert that just because Tivo uses Linux as the platform for
> their product, it *doesn't* mean that they don't use proprietary software
> on top of it. You can't "modify" GPL'd code and restrict it, but you can
> certainly run closed code on top of it. Also you'd need to cut out all
> the bits that receive information externally from Tivo or their partners,
> including guide data, service updates, time syncing, etc., since that is
> clearly a "service" that you are no longer paying for.
>
SNIP

Tivo apparently uses at least some proprietary code. What that is, I have no
idea. They also, from this statement under the terms and agreements page,
use some Open Source code as well:

"Open Source Software. Certain components of the software for the TiVo DVR
are subject to the GNU General Public License or other so-called open source
licenses ("Open-Source Software"). Open Source Software is not subject to
the restrictions in the last sentence of Section 15 ("Title to Software and
Intellectual Property"), and is subject to the GNU General Public License
("GPL") or other license terms, as applicable. In compliance with the terms
of the GPL, TiVo makes its modifications to Open Source Software that TiVo
uses, modifies and distributes pursuant to the GPL available to the public
in source code form at www.tivo.com/source. You are free to use, modify and
distribute Open Source Software that is subject to the GPL so long as you
comply with the terms of the GPL (available in the product manual or at
www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html)."

This statement would also seem to indicate that modifications to the Open
Source portions of Tivo as acceptable based on that last sentence.

I agree completely that you would need to eliminate the Tivo proprietary
portions of code and hence the reason I asked about a hack to do that. In my
original post I may not have been clear but I tried to indicate that I
didn't need the functionality of the Tivo service, only the ability to set a
time and channel to record (manually like a VCR).

So in my unofficial opinion, I see no theft of service

TC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:55:14 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:

> I agree completely that you would need to eliminate the Tivo proprietary
> portions of code

TiVo proprietary code is everything you need to make a TiVo record &
playback TV. Without the TiVo proprietary code, you _might_ be able to get
the unit to boot, but I doubt it. Certainly you'd have no control of the
encoder, the decoder, or anything else you needed to make a functioning
DVR.

> So in my unofficial opinion, I see no theft of service

Not theft of service, but if you use the TiVo software without a
subscription, you are using it illegally (because the software is only
licensed to subscribers).

--
Lenroc

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Lenroc wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 05:43:21 +0000, Tony Clark wrote:
>
>
>>Therefore it is clear from this statement that some of the software on the
>>Tivo unit is Open Source and may be freely modified per the GPL. The
>>question then would be what components of the Tivo software are Open Source
>
>
> The kernel. Check http/www.tivo.com/linux
>
>
>>versus Tivo proprietary?
>
>
> Everything else.
>
> Enjoy!
>

I can't decide whether Tony is really interested in the answer or is
just trying to rationalize and justify the answer he *wants*. Why not
trying to start out from Tivo's point of view? Would Tivo sell a
product where they make most of their income from subscription charges
without at least attempting to legally limit use without a subscription?

That doesn't mean the legal language will be perfect or not have holes,
but you should be able to assume that there's language in there at least
attempting to do it. And their lawyers are better trained than you ;-).

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Randy S. wrote:

>> I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need Tivo's IP?
>
> Because the patent office has idiotically decided to allow patents on

I think Tony was confused about your use of "IP". Tony's post looks like
he was talking about an IP address. You were talking about Intellectual
Property.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Adam Maloney wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005, Randy S. wrote:
>
>>> I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need
>>> Tivo's IP?
>>
>>
>> Because the patent office has idiotically decided to allow patents on
>
>
> I think Tony was confused about your use of "IP". Tony's post looks
> like he was talking about an IP address. You were talking about
> Intellectual Property.

Well that wasn't originally my post, but in2sheep was ;-).

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

<in2sheep@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1111126299.800926.91960@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> Tony Clark wrote:
>> Tivo apparently uses at least some proprietary code. What that is, I
> have no
>> idea. They also, from this statement under the terms and agreements
> page,
>> use some Open Source code as well:
>
> You do know TiVo is built on Linux, right? And the Linux kernel (along
> with the majority of its tools are all GPL).
>
> See http/www.tivo.com/linux/linux.asp for what's GPL. Everything
> else not listed is TiVo proprietary code.
>

It would appear that Tivo distributes quite a bit of their code under the
Open Source GPL based on the link you provided. I haven't looked at the
modules specifically but there seem to be a lot of them. If it's Open Source
then you can modify it all you want, according to the OS GPL and Tivo's T&C
(as you rightfully pointed out).

SNIP

>
> Ok, so look into MythTV running on a separate PC - you won't be able to
> hack your TiVo to do what you want since you won't be able to get the
> hardware to work for you without using TiVo's IP.
>

I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need Tivo's IP?
If I modify the code to use a publicly available programming list, or if I
completely ignore any such list and simply put a day/time/channel/duration
and start the recorder why would I be using Tivo's IP? Perhaps "hack" is the
wrong term since that implies some modification of existing code. Maybe I
should have said, is there a separately available program that can be loaded
on a Tivo that will allow for simplistic recording of video input (TV,
Cable, Video Recorder...etc..)?

Cheers
TC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> I am not sure I understand you last statement. Why would I need Tivo's IP?

Because the patent office has idiotically decided to allow patents on
concepts and ideas rather than just devices and processes. If Amazon
can patent "one click purchasing" then Tivo can certainly patent
concepts pertaining to time shifting and recording as long as they
aren't "prior art" (which the patent office seems to have trouble
finding and defining).

> If I modify the code to use a publicly available programming list,

Only if that code is GPL'd

> or if I
> completely ignore any such list and simply put a day/time/channel/duration
> and start the recorder why would I be using Tivo's IP? Perhaps "hack" is the
> wrong term since that implies some modification of existing code. Maybe I
> should have said, is there a separately available program that can be loaded
> on a Tivo that will allow for simplistic recording of video input (TV,
> Cable, Video Recorder...etc..)?

That might be better, however if any of Tivo's software for operating
the mpeg encoder/decoder hardware is non-GPL'd as well (which seems
*very* likely to me) you'd have to find replacements for those as well.

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>is there a separately available program that can be loaded
on a Tivo that will allow for simplistic recording of video input (TV,
Cable, Video Recorder...etc..)? <<

Short answer, no. Designing a program to do this without using any of
Tivo's existing propriety software would require a skilled programmer
and some backward engineering.

-Eric

 

[mark]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:02:41 -0700, Lenroc <lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 17:31:48 -0500, Mark wrote:
>
>> On 17 Mar 2005 13:46:32 -0800, in2sheep@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>I'm not so sure that's true. You may not be licensed to use certain
>>>pieces of the software on the box. If you continue to use TiVo's code
>>>without paying the subscription, that may be illegal. The hardware is
>>>yours but you don't buy all rights to the software with your purchase.
>>
>> Nope. I bought the box. Never signed any agreement. I can do with it as I
>> please so long as I'm not accessing Tivo's (or anyone elses) pay databases.
>> It really is that simple.
>
>Right. As in2sheep pointed out, you bought the box. Have fun with the box
>however you want.
>
>However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded on the
>box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement.

I don't care what Tivo "agreed" to. They certainly didn't "agree" to anything
with me.

Again, I bought it, I'll reverse engineer and tamper with any part of the
software I feel like with zero repercussions.

>If you want to try to pretend to know what you're talking about,

Oh God. Look who's talking! No sense in going any farther with you....

 

[mark]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On 17 Mar 2005 17:13:25 -0800, in2sheep@yahoo.com wrote:

>
>Randy S. wrote:
>> > However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded
>on the
>> > box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement. One part
>of
>> > that agreement states that you only have license to the software as
>long
>> > as you have a subscription.
>>
>> Not to mention that I'm sure that you agree *again* to the acceptable
>
>> use policy when you activate your service.
>
>http/www.tivo.com/5.11.2.asp
>
>"...TiVo retains title to and ownership of all the software for the
>TiVo DVR and certain intellectual property rights in the TiVo DVR..."
>
>So, even though you bought and own the hardware, the software isn't
>yours to do with as you please.

It is for my personal use. There is no debate here, yet people seem to want
one.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>However, your use of the software that happened to come preloaded on the
>>box is subject to the terms of TiVo's licensing agreement.
>
>
> I don't care what Tivo "agreed" to. They certainly didn't "agree" to anything
> with me.

Mark, you can't really be this dense. The "agreement" in question is
that between you and TiVo, so you are necessarily a part of it and you
accepted this "agreement" when you bought the product (legally, even if
you don't agree with the legal precedent), and again when you activated
your service.

> Again, I bought it, I'll reverse engineer and tamper with any part of the
> software I feel like with zero repercussions.

Ok, have you been conscious the last 10 years? Did you hear nothing
about the kid in Norway (at least I think it was Norway) who was
convicted for reverse engineering the DVD CSS encryption? Clearly you
*cannot* reverse engineer tamper with anything you want with no
repercussions in the eyes of the law. You may not agree with the laws,
but you can't say they don't exist.

>>If you want to try to pretend to know what you're talking about,
>
> Oh God. Look who's talking! No sense in going any farther with you....

And we're supposed to go further with you when you won't admit facts
clearly in evidence? Numerous legal and ethical statements of fact have
been presented, and all you've done is present logical fallacies and
personal opinions. "I bought it, so I'll do anything I want with it" is
not a valid or logical argument or legal statement.

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:27:57 -0500, Mark wrote:

> Again, I bought it, I'll reverse engineer and tamper with any part of the
> software I feel like with zero repercussions.

That's just it, you didn't _BUY_ the software.

But you don't seem to care, so do what you want. It's not legal, but I'm
pretty sure they aren't going to come break down your door, so have at it...

--
Lenroc

 

[mark]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 10:23:31 -0700, Lenroc <lenroc@NOSPAMFORYOU.hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 07:27:57 -0500, Mark wrote:
>
>> Again, I bought it, I'll reverse engineer and tamper with any part of the
>> software I feel like with zero repercussions.
>
>That's just it, you didn't _BUY_ the software.

I bought the box and the software is on it. I'll do as I please with it for
my personal use and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.

Yea, it's really that simple.

>But you don't seem to care, so do what you want. It's not legal,

That's right. It isn't illegal. With that said, what's the problem??

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>That's just it, you didn't _BUY_ the software.
>
>
> I bought the box and the software is on it. I'll do as I please with it for
> my personal use and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.
>
> Yea, it's really that simple.

So, today you went out and bought lunch. They served you a sandwich and
fries on a plate with a fork and knife. You never signed an agreement.
Do you now own the plate and utensils? If not, why? If so, I'd like
to see you walk out openly with them.

>>But you don't seem to care, so do what you want. It's not legal,
>
>
> That's right. It isn't illegal. With that said, what's the problem??

The problem is you can't seem to read and comprehend.

"It's not legal" != "It isn't illegal"

Can you work through that much logic? Do you understand negatives and
antonyms?

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Well first let me say that I am no lawyer so now that is out of the way I
will say this.

Most of the Ts & Cs people are quoting here are from the Tivo SERVICE
agreement which you can easily find on the web site. Most of the language in
that document is centered around using the Tivo HW/SW in conjunction with
the Tivo Service. If you never sign up for Tivo service then none of the
terms in that document would apply IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion).

What I cannot determine is what, if any, agreement was included with the
actual Hardware unit. I don't recall seeing any specific legal documents
included with the hardware that implies any sort of agreement between the
purchaser and Tivo. So it appears that Mark may actually have a point and
that is as long as it's for personal use (ie non-commercial usage) then you
can do anything you want to your Tivo unit.

I am sure someone with more legal experience than I could comment upon or
correct my assumptions.

Cheers
TC


"Randy S." <rswittno@spamgmail.com> wrote in message
news:d1polk$1cbo$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
>
>>>That's just it, you didn't _BUY_ the software.
>>
>>
>> I bought the box and the software is on it. I'll do as I please with it
>> for
>> my personal use and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it.
>>
>> Yea, it's really that simple.
>
> So, today you went out and bought lunch. They served you a sandwich and
> fries on a plate with a fork and knife. You never signed an agreement. Do
> you now own the plate and utensils? If not, why? If so, I'd like to see
> you walk out openly with them.
>
>>>But you don't seem to care, so do what you want. It's not legal,
>>
>>
>> That's right. It isn't illegal. With that said, what's the problem??
>
> The problem is you can't seem to read and comprehend.
>
> "It's not legal" != "It isn't illegal"
>
> Can you work through that much logic? Do you understand negatives and
> antonyms?
>
> Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Tony Clark wrote:
> Well first let me say that I am no lawyer so now that is out of the way I
> will say this.
>
> Most of the Ts & Cs people are quoting here are from the Tivo SERVICE
> agreement which you can easily find on the web site. Most of the language in
> that document is centered around using the Tivo HW/SW in conjunction with
> the Tivo Service. If you never sign up for Tivo service then none of the
> terms in that document would apply IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion).
>
> What I cannot determine is what, if any, agreement was included with the
> actual Hardware unit. I don't recall seeing any specific legal documents
> included with the hardware that implies any sort of agreement between the
> purchaser and Tivo. So it appears that Mark may actually have a point and
> that is as long as it's for personal use (ie non-commercial usage) then you
> can do anything you want to your Tivo unit.

Well, at least that's a logical argument. I don't recall either if
there was an agreement on or in the box. If there was *not*, I'd have
to agree with you, the usage agreement would not be binding until you
activated service, so if you purchased the DVR and never activated
service you would not be bound by it.

However, I'm willing to bet there *was* an agreement in or on the the
original box. I have no way of confirming that however.

Randy S.