Hacks to turn Series 2 units into stand-alone DVR?

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:d1rorg$c76$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
> Tony Clark wrote:
SNIP

>
> Well, at least that's a logical argument. I don't recall either if there
> was an agreement on or in the box. If there was *not*, I'd have to agree
> with you, the usage agreement would not be binding until you activated
> service, so if you purchased the DVR and never activated service you would
> not be bound by it.
>
> However, I'm willing to bet there *was* an agreement in or on the the
> original box. I have no way of confirming that however.
>
> Randy S.

I dug up all the Tivo docs that came with my Series 2 unit. In the Users
Guide, Chapter 9, are the terms and conditions of the Tivo Service
Agreement. Section 16, Title to Software and Intellectual Property, states
"Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse
engineer, modify, sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either
the Tivo DVR or software of this system is strictly prohibited, except as
expressly set forth in Section 17 ("Open Source Software").

Now it would appear on the surface that this is a very precise and clear
statement, however, this statement is contained within the context of the
Tivo Service Agreement. So, legally speaking, I don't think it's at all
clear whether it's legal to hack the Tivo if you do not have service or
accept the service agreement terms and conditions. On the other hand it does
appear clear that Tivo doesn't want you modifying the hardware or the
software but may not have constructed this agreement appropriately to cover
the non-service situation.

If I read the statement correctly, it would also prohibit the addition or
modification of the hard drive system which is frequently and freely
discussed in this forum and many other Tivo forums that prohibit "theft of
service" discussions. IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion) modifying the
hard drive would fall into the "theft of service" category.

So, clear as mud right...LOL

Cheers
TC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> I dug up all the Tivo docs that came with my Series 2 unit. In the
Users
> Guide, Chapter 9, are the terms and conditions of the Tivo Service
> Agreement. Section 16, Title to Software and Intellectual Property, states
> "Any attempt to disassemble, decompile, create derivative works of, reverse
> engineer, modify, sublicense, distribute or use for other purposes either
> the Tivo DVR or software of this system is strictly prohibited, except as
> expressly set forth in Section 17 ("Open Source Software").
>
> Now it would appear on the surface that this is a very precise and clear
> statement, however, this statement is contained within the context of the
> Tivo Service Agreement. So, legally speaking, I don't think it's at all
> clear whether it's legal to hack the Tivo if you do not have service or
> accept the service agreement terms and conditions. On the other hand it does
> appear clear that Tivo doesn't want you modifying the hardware or the
> software but may not have constructed this agreement appropriately to cover
> the non-service situation.

Now you're getting into the nitty-gritty details, and us backyard
lawyers probably don't know enough precedent to know exactly. But you
aren't stating an impossibility or an improbability. Comapanies have
set forth unenforceable or incomplete legal statements quite often.

>
> If I read the statement correctly, it would also prohibit the addition or
> modification of the hard drive system which is frequently and freely
> discussed in this forum and many other Tivo forums that prohibit "theft of
> service" discussions. IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion) modifying the
> hard drive would fall into the "theft of service" category.
>
> So, clear as mud right...LOL

I tend to agree with you. It's always been my impression that the Tivo
communities modifications were technically against the usage agreements,
but that Tivo has turned a blind eye to them.

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:d1udoa$mre$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
>SNIP

>
> Now you're getting into the nitty-gritty details, and us backyard lawyers
> probably don't know enough precedent to know exactly. But you aren't
> stating an impossibility or an improbability. Comapanies have set forth
> unenforceable or incomplete legal statements quite often.
>

Yeah, I guess my point is that it's hard to tell, as a non-lawyer, what part
of this agreement is legally binding. Therefore it's kind of hard, IMHO, to
be so matter-of-fact in regards to "theft of service" arguments.

>>
>> If I read the statement correctly, it would also prohibit the addition or
>> modification of the hard drive system which is frequently and freely
>> discussed in this forum and many other Tivo forums that prohibit "theft
>> of service" discussions. IMHNLO (In My Humble Non-Legal Opinion)
>> modifying the hard drive would fall into the "theft of service" category.
>>
>> So, clear as mud right...LOL
>
> I tend to agree with you. It's always been my impression that the Tivo
> communities modifications were technically against the usage agreements,
> but that Tivo has turned a blind eye to them.
>

Yes I can see where a hard drive modification does no harm to Tivo, in the
legal sense. If anything you could make an argument that it helps Tivo
because you are more likely to continue to use the service as opposed to a
software modification that might encourage you to drop the service. Still I
find it ironic that people will argue one point to the extreme (software
hacks) while turning a blind eye to another, just as valid, point.

I think we've put this one to bed finally...LOL

Cheers
TC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> Yes I can see where a hard drive modification does no harm to Tivo, in the
> legal sense. If anything you could make an argument that it helps Tivo
> because you are more likely to continue to use the service as opposed to a
> software modification that might encourage you to drop the service. Still I
> find it ironic that people will argue one point to the extreme (software
> hacks) while turning a blind eye to another, just as valid, point.
>
> I think we've put this one to bed finally...LOL
>
> Cheers
> TC

I think the reason most Tivo fans take a hard line against hacking to
avoid subscription versus hacking to add hard drives, etc., is two-fold;
one, Tivo seems to have given tacit acceptance of the latter (esp. since
several for-profit companies *sell* equipment to do it), while strongly
discouraging the former(all such talk is banned on tivo-sponsored or
associated bulletin boards) and two, they believe that the latter type
of hacking helps tivo (as you note), while the former type could
serioiusly affect their bottom line and shorten their viability as a
company. So, yes, there is definitely some interpretation going on, but
I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

I am upset too, no wonder they were giving the series 2 away so cheap. Its
dam useless with out the service.

I have a series 1 and a series 2.. I just remembers I gave my mom a series 2
.. I can copy her image and get at least the channels.


"Randy S." <rswittNO@SPAMgmail.com> wrote in message
news:d2032n$c68$1@spnode25.nerdc.ufl.edu...
>
> > Yes I can see where a hard drive modification does no harm to Tivo, in
the
> > legal sense. If anything you could make an argument that it helps Tivo
> > because you are more likely to continue to use the service as opposed to
a
> > software modification that might encourage you to drop the service.
Still I
> > find it ironic that people will argue one point to the extreme (software
> > hacks) while turning a blind eye to another, just as valid, point.
> >
> > I think we've put this one to bed finally...LOL
> >
> > Cheers
> > TC
>
> I think the reason most Tivo fans take a hard line against hacking to
> avoid subscription versus hacking to add hard drives, etc., is two-fold;
> one, Tivo seems to have given tacit acceptance of the latter (esp. since
> several for-profit companies *sell* equipment to do it), while strongly
> discouraging the former(all such talk is banned on tivo-sponsored or
> associated bulletin boards) and two, they believe that the latter type
> of hacking helps tivo (as you note), while the former type could
> serioiusly affect their bottom line and shorten their viability as a
> company. So, yes, there is definitely some interpretation going on, but
> I don't think it's that much of a stretch.
>
> Randy S.