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Doug McDonald wrote:
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>
>> The 1000 kW transmitter that serves 20,000sq miles (where Utah from a
>> 10,000 ft peak?) would cover the same area with COFDM.
>
>
> Incorrect. COFDM needs twice the average power, at the same bitrate.
>
> This is a fact, and you simply can't beat it. At large distances
> multipath is not usually a problem. This is because people
> use real antenna at fairly high heights (in order to get the singal
> at all, of course).
>
> Doug McDonald

Not a lab test this Doug. This is the real world where 20 Watt
transmitters are part of a MFN that covers a country with COFDM using 80
tranmitters.

Stay in your lab. You didn't come to face the music when we had 8-SVB
and COFDM go head to head in Toronto or New York in the real world. We
have been working with 5th gen 8-VSB receivers and the latest COFDM. As
ever COFDM runs circles around anything 8-VSB. They do not belong in the
same conversation. Certainly not in the same century.

The only toe hold you can find for 8-VSB is a suppossed power difference
and it is pure fantasy in the real world.

Bob Miller
 
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Sal M. Onella wrote:
> "Aztech" <az@tech.com> wrote in message
> news:HtDFd.712464$lR6.110769@news.easynews.com...
>
>>"Aztech" <az@tech.com> wrote in message
>>news:VnDFd.711958$O24.104508@news.easynews.com...
>><
>>
>>>Not much in it :-
>>
>>http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/crystalpalace/crystal-palace-maps.asp
>>
>>
>
> One of those TV transmitters was 7.5 watts. That's a Christmas tree bulb!!!
>
>


I think there are a few at 3 Watts at Idle. In fact if you add up ALL
the digital COFDM transmitters in the UK. That is ALL six at each of the
80 transmitter sites the total power in use is around ONE MegaWatt or
the equivalent of ONE US DTV 8-VSB station at full authorized power.

Here is a list of ALL 480 transmitters at the 80 sites and their power
levels. Add them up for yourself.

http://dtt-tx-info.org/current_tx.htm

According to Doug then it would only take 1/2 of this MegaWatt to do the
UK with 8-VSB on all those 480 transmitters.

Like to see that!!

Bob Miller
 
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Doug McDonald wrote:

> Bob: TEST THE FAR FIELD.

His business plan does not involve the far field.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
 
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In article <cs9oo8$ijr$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>, Doug McDonald wrote:
> The backup power generator for the lab building I work in is
> rated at a megawatt. It is tested each month running at 500 kilowatts.
> It's in a room only a little bigger than the average living room,
> including the 500 kilowatt dummy load.

I have a mental image of five hundred electric fires in an average living
room, so I hope you don't test it for very long without the windows open.

:)

Rod.
 
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Roderick Stewart wrote:

> In article <cs9oo8$ijr$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>, Doug McDonald wrote:
>
>>The backup power generator for the lab building I work in is
>>rated at a megawatt. It is tested each month running at 500 kilowatts.
>>It's in a room only a little bigger than the average living room,
>>including the 500 kilowatt dummy load.
>
>
> I have a mental image of five hundred electric fires in an average living
> room, so I hope you don't test it for very long without the windows open.


The image is 500 pop up toasters. That's what it looks like ...
large coils of 1/16 inch diameter Nichrome wire arranged like
in a toaster. And a very big fan and a wall with louvers.
It killed the little tree planted right outside the louvers.

Doug McDonald
 
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In article <zG_Fd.769744$lR6.116300@news.easynews.com>, Aztech wrote:
> Most of these are a legacy of the 60's though, strangely nobody seems to much
> care about transmitters pumping out 1MW because they've been there half a
> century and accepted as part of the scenery, yet they will moan no end about a
> planned cellular site operating at a few watts.

Another point that they completely miss is that whether or not mobile phone
signals do any harm (and the case is not conclusively proven, unlike the case
for, say, motor transport or cigarette smoke), the highest signal strengths are
received not from the base stations, but from the little transmitters that people
hold against their ears, and the signals from these will actually be *reduced* by
the nearby presence of a base station.

Rod.
 
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In article <WD1Gd.7256$pZ4.3184@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>, Bob Miller
wrote:
> > One of those TV transmitters was 7.5 watts. That's a Christmas tree bulb!!!
> >
> >
>
> I think there are a few at 3 Watts at Idle.

"Idle" is a good name for it then, because it practically is. :)

Rod.
 

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"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.nospam.plus.com> wrote in message
news:VA.000008ae.00a1b15f@escapetime.nospam.plus.com...
> In article <zG_Fd.769744$lR6.116300@news.easynews.com>, Aztech wrote:
>> Most of these are a legacy of the 60's though, strangely nobody seems to much
>> care about transmitters pumping out 1MW because they've been there half a
>> century and accepted as part of the scenery, yet they will moan no end about
>> a
>> planned cellular site operating at a few watts.
>
> Another point that they completely miss is that whether or not mobile phone
> signals do any harm (and the case is not conclusively proven, unlike the case
> for, say, motor transport or cigarette smoke), the highest signal strengths
> are
> received not from the base stations, but from the little transmitters that
> people
> hold against their ears, and the signals from these will actually be *reduced*
> by
> the nearby presence of a base station.

It's misplaced fear of 'microwaves', frequency wise there is not a vast
difference between a GSM900 and high Band-V PAL site, except the latter will
almost certainly a higher power.


Az.
 
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"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:IMbFd.5369$Ii4.4892@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>> ivan wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> But as virtually every TV receiver and VCR manufactured during the last
>>> 15
>>> years is equipped with at least one Scart socket, and digital receivers
>>> can
>>> now be purchased for under £40, this is hardly the problem you would
>>> have us
>>> believe.
>>>
>>
>> The fact that DTV in the US does not have that natural backwards
>> compatibility explains exactly why the DTV rollout in the US is on a
>> different time scale than DTV in Europe.
>>
>> Matthew (no, it's not the modulation scheme)
>>
>
> Any digital receiver should be able to connect to an analog TV in the US.

Yep - though the quality is not as high AIUI - as composite or s-video,
rather than RGB connectivity is the norm? In the UK most TV sets sold
include at least one RGB SCART, and almost all digital TV kit (and DVD
players) include RGB out on their SCART.

The quality improvement over composite/s-video is quite noticable - and the
SCART standard also supports simple 16:9/4:3 switching for feeding 16:9
displays. (Almost every set sold over a 21" diagonal in the UK is now 16:9)

The plug-and-play nature of SCART is also an issue - just a single connector
carrying audio, video, control etc. makes plugging in a new bit of kit far
less scary than having to use loads of coloured phonos!

> That is not the problem. In the US no one has offered a similar service to
> the UK's Freeview. USDTV is the closest but offers only 12 subscription
> channels while in the UK you have 30 free channels.
>

Yep - the Freeview proposition - especially the high quality BBC Childrens'
services, plus the rolling news, digital radio and extra ITV services are
all quite strong factors. The multiple home-shopping channels (QVC, Ideal
World, Bid Up and Price Drop) aren't...


> The combination of inexpensive receivers and 30 free channels is a
> powerful combo. Expect 50 subscription channels plus the regular free OTA
> broadcast channels to start being offered in larger markets in the US
> once 5th gen receivers appear.

Surely that will be a shame though - as it will no doubt reduce the quality
of HD, or mean no HD? In the UK the SD multicasting of the Freeview
services is done at quite high quality - though the ITV/C4 and SDN/Five
non-Freeview multiplexes are beginning to show signs of overcompression (9
services in 24Mbs is not good...)

Hopefully we'll move to HD via DSat/Internet first, and once analogue switch
off takes place hopefully the government will see sense and release the free
spectrum for OTA HD.

Steve

>
> Bob Miller
> (its all about modulation which will become apparent with 5th gen 8-VSB
> receivers and COFDM networks) The first rule is that you have to have
> something that works before it can be successful.
 
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Stephen Neal wrote:

>
> The quality improvement over composite/s-video is quite noticable - and the
> SCART standard also supports simple 16:9/4:3 switching for feeding 16:9
> displays. (Almost every set sold over a 21" diagonal in the UK is now 16:9)

In the US we don't use RGB for TV use, at least not normally.
We use "component" which is luma (Y) and R-Y and B-Y. These
are of course equivalent.

>
> The plug-and-play nature of SCART is also an issue - just a single connector
> carrying audio, video, control etc. makes plugging in a new bit of kit far
> less scary than having to use loads of coloured phonos!

The problem is that many ... very many ... people in the US use
separate devices for the video and audio, so you need them
split out. Also, our audio is not just two channel, but
Dolby Digital 5.1. Few if any current TV sets or set top boxes
decode that ... normally it is done in a separate box that is
also used for decoding DVDs or DVD-Audio of SACD and playing FM radio.
The usual connection is optical.

Doug McDonald
 

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"Stephen Neal" <stephen.neal@nospam.as-directed.com> wrote in message
news:csbg08
<
> Surely that will be a shame though - as it will no doubt reduce the quality of
> HD, or mean no HD? In the UK the SD multicasting of the Freeview services is
> done at quite high quality

Try watching BBC Two on Freeview, I hope you don't have the misfortune of seeing
what it does to some of your own output.

Freeview is a makeshift network at best, there is no clear spectrum allocation
to the service and the transmission powers are lamentable, how they're able to
sell so many boxes on the back of such a poorly planned set up, I don't know.

Sky will launch its HD satellite service soon, this will be somewhat of a
sticking point for the Beeb, they won't like to provide HD content for DSat,
which is essentially Murdoch's platform from the point of view of the public,
whilst Freeview is still stuck in the dark ages, the launch of HD-DVD will also
press this point home when your average punter tries to watch Freeview after
just viewing a DVD on his lovely new 40" LCD.

If it's anything like DAB after the transition the BBC will end up with hardly
any UHF spectrum, nor does there seem to be any desire to fight for any.


Az.
 
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Stephen Neal wrote:
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>The combination of inexpensive receivers and 30 free channels is a
>>powerful combo. Expect 50 subscription channels plus the regular free OTA
>>broadcast channels to start being offered in larger markets in the US
>>once 5th gen receivers appear.
>
>
> Surely that will be a shame though - as it will no doubt reduce the quality
> of HD, or mean no HD? In the UK the SD multicasting of the Freeview
> services is done at quite high quality - though the ITV/C4 and SDN/Five
> non-Freeview multiplexes are beginning to show signs of overcompression (9
> services in 24Mbs is not good...)
>
> Hopefully we'll move to HD via DSat/Internet first, and once analogue switch
> off takes place hopefully the government will see sense and release the free
> spectrum for OTA HD.
>
> Steve

It means that the market will decide. If the market wants lots of HD it
will get it. HD can be delivered via OTA, Internet, cable and satellite.
No one will suffer a lack of HD if that is what they want.

OTA will also deliver what the market wants. Over time that will most
likely be more and more HD. Any delivery vehicle that gets it wrong will
suffer. Right now OTA is suffering and almost extinct because it has
been getting it wrong for a long time. Its major problems have been poor
receivability and limited number of channels.

Both of those things change with digital. NOT however digital done with
a modulation, 8-VSB, that was designed only to MATCH NTSC in
receivability. It has therefore been a NO GO since the beginning.
Especially since being the same as NTSC wasn't in reality the SAME. With
NTSC you have snow or streaks with interference, with 8-VSB you have
loss of signal. Not the same to me or the public.

With 5th generation 8-VSB receivers, COFDM and PVR functionality the
negatives of OTA go away and the positives come to the fore. OTA is less
expensive to build and maintain than cable and is able to reach people
where ever they are mobile or fixed (at least with COFDM). Long term OTA
replaces satellite, cable and fiber IMO. Fiber at least locally not long
distance.

Watch third world emerging countries to see the future. It will be all
wireless on the local level. Only dinosaurs are crazy enough and have
enough money to lose to plant fiber in the local market.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller
 
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In article <csbcqm$152$2@news.ks.uiuc.edu>, Doug McDonald wrote:
> > In article <cs9oo8$ijr$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu>, Doug McDonald wrote:
> >
> >>The backup power generator for the lab building I work in is
> >>rated at a megawatt. It is tested each month running at 500 kilowatts.
> >>It's in a room only a little bigger than the average living room,
> >>including the 500 kilowatt dummy load.
> >
> >
> > I have a mental image of five hundred electric fires in an average living
> > room, so I hope you don't test it for very long without the windows open.
>
> The image is 500 pop up toasters. That's what it looks like ...
> large coils of 1/16 inch diameter Nichrome wire arranged like
> in a toaster. And a very big fan and a wall with louvers.
> It killed the little tree planted right outside the louvers.
>
After a couple of glasses of Cabernet Sauvignon that mental image just keeps
getting better. Shame about the tree, but be careful those extreme local
atmospheric conditions you've created haven't caused something more exotic to
grow in its place - like a triffid perhaps. Still, I suppose you can have all
the toast you can eat, and done to a turn in a few seconds.

Rod.
 
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Bob Miller has got to be the single most harmful troll in the world
of HDTV. He and his
company have made unfounded accusations for years against the work
that I and thousands of engineers
and scientists have done for the Grand Alliance system. Believe me,
we looked at every possible modulation and coding method, and our
system worked best from the earliest prototypes, to the first OTA
tests and broadcasts ten years ago. For years, Sinclair and Miller
conducted a massive disinformation campaign to cast doubt on the
public about the performance of the 8-VSB system, hinting that it
doesn't really work and that anyone buying HDTV equipment would be
screwed as soon as the FCC reversed itself and made COFDM the new
standard.

There is just no demand for mobile video, HDTV or otherwise. For 20
years LCD televisions have been available for under $100. When was
the last time you saw someone walking down the street watching one?
The law and common sense procludes the driver of a vehicle from
watching TV...Automobile installation of TV is usually banned from
being installed where anyone in the front seat can see it. So are
the kids in the back seat demanding to watch Jay Leno or sports?
No, they are watching kids programs on DVD.
 
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John Mailhot wrote:
> Bob Miller has got to be the single most harmful troll in the world of HDTV. He and his company have made unfounded accusations for years against the work
> that I and thousands of engineers and scientists have done for the Grand Alliance system. Believe me, we looked at every possible modulation and coding method, and our
> system worked best from the earliest prototypes, to the first OTA tests and broadcasts ten years ago.

So it stopped working best after the first ten years. In 1998 it was no
longer best. No longer second best. It was no longer a modulation that a
country interested in the best would even consider. It had to be forced
through the system using every trick in the book. Fraudulent and secret
test. Threats and intimidation, you name it and 8-VSB proponents did it.

Maybe the thousands of engineers should have had an open mind and looked
at what the rest of the world was doing with COFDM technology that was
invented right here in the US. And I suggest that you did NOT look at
all the modulations available with any great scrutiny. Professor
Emeritus William Schreiber was the head of the MIT Advanced Research Lab
during the creation of 8-VSB and is an engineer and was intimately
involved with and participated in the contest to build a digital TV
modulation.

He invited all involved to a convention he organized on COFDM and had
all the top scientist working on COFDM worldwide attend. Few if any of
those working on 8-VSB or from the FCC came.

You can read about him here.
http://www.wfschreiber.org

Here is a letter he wrote to Congressman Edward J. Markey back in 2000

31 July 2000

Hon. Edward J. Markey
2108 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington DC 20515
The recent hearing re COFDM vs “8-VSB”
Dear Congressman Markey:

You may recall that I appeared before your subcommittee at the start of
the HDTV Inquiry. At that time, I was director of the MIT Advanced
Television Research Program. Of the various things that I said, the one
that got the most attention was “HDTV is not about pretty pictures; it
is about jobs and money.” Although we are much less worried today about
jobs or money, the shift that is underway in terrestrial TV broadcasting
from analog to digital is still very important for the future health of
our economy as the importance of information technologies grows.

The FCC was quite correct in deciding that over-the-air (OTA)
broadcasting must shift from analog to digital. In my opinion, there is
no other way to provide the spectrum that is needed for all the
wealth-creating wireless services that we hear so much about. The
current NTSC system, using 50-year old technology, is simply too
wasteful of spectrum, requiring an allocation of 67 6-MHz channels to
provide no more than 20 programs of mediocre technical quality to each
viewer. By using digital transmission and the best current technology,
it would be possible to provide 20 HDTV programs to each viewer in the
country with an overall allocation of only 20 6-MHz channels.
Alternatively, for lower technical quality, but still higher than that
of NTSC, we could allocate even a smaller amount of spectrum.

Although the FCC deserves a lot of credit for understanding this aspect
of OTA broadcasting, it made a serious blunder (no kinder word suffices
here) in accepting the “8-VSB” modulation method that was proposed by
ACATS. This error was partly technical and partly political. Reed
Hundt placed much too much faith in the “free” market’s ability to
design TV standards that would properly serve the public interest,
convenience, and necessity. The design of the system was left entirely
to the industry, without adequate supervision by the Commission. In
particular, the Commission failed to insist on realistic testing. As a
result, we have a system that is too unreliable to be used. While this
is not the only reason for the failure, so far, of the transition to
digital broadcasting, it is a problem that absolutely must be solved for
the transition to be successful enough so that analog broadcasting can
be turned off without a public outcry.

I was most interested in what transpired at the recent hearing. While
one demonstration surely is not sufficient to conclude anything, there
have now been many demonstrations of the ease of reception of COFDM (the
system demonstrated by Sinclair) under many different kinds of
conditions. There have been many other examples that clearly indicate
the difficulty of receiving the 8-VSB transmissions on simple antennas,
especially in downtown areas. A number of those testifying in favor of
8-VSB gave false and misleading statements on these matters that were,
unfortunately, not challenged by members of the Subcommittee. It should
be borne in mind that the system approved by the FCC was submitted by
ACATS in 1995 -- more than five years ago. One would think that any
problems in receiver design would long since have been found and fixed
if possible. In my opinion, the 8-VSB scheme will never work well
enough, no matter how much time is allowed.

Digital OTA broadcasting using COFDM started in Britain in November
1998, the same time as in the US. Nearly one million subscribers now
use the service and there have been few complaints. That penetration,
taking account of the different populations, is 100 times greater than
in the US.

It is not as if COFDM was unknown to the American system proponents.
The FCC as well as the system proponents in the Grand Alliance were
fully informed about the advantages of COFDM -- about its much better
performance in the presence of multipath (ghosts), its ability to
support single-frequency networks that would completely solve the
problem of finding spectrum for LPTV stations, and its ability to
provide more service in a given spectrum allocation than single-carrier
systems such as 8-VSB. For a variety of reasons, all specious, ACATS
turned down COFDM.

In order not to make this letter too long, I have placed in an appendix
some material relating to the history of COFDM and my own involvement in
it. For the sake of full disclosure, I should say that I have some
patents in the field, assigned to MIT, but I do not expect to make any
money from them, no matter what happens to digital broadcasting in the US.

I would like to get the substance of this letter into the hands of Mr.
Tauzin and whoever on his staff is following this matter, and I solicit
your suggestions as to how to do this.

Sincerely



Appendix: Some OFDM History

I first heard about OFDM on a trip to Europe in the late 80s, and called
it to the attention of the chief engineer of the FCC on my return. OFDM
was invented at Bell Labs in 1965, and the “C” (coded) was added, by
CCETT (a French government lab.) in the middle 80s. By that time, it
had been tested for audio in Europe and Canada with good results.
Virtually all the labs then working on it had come to the conclusion
that it was the right system for DTV broadcasting because of its good
multipath performance. When I first described it to the FCC point man,
he said that such a system could not possibly work. (A famous
mathematician once “proved” that FM was impossible because it has an
infinite spectrum.) Eventually, however, the FCC changed its mind and
directed ACATS to investigate COFDM, which it reluctantly did.

I was sufficiently impressed by the possibilities of COFDM that I
decided to take two more PhD students after my formal retirement from
MIT in 1990. The project was funded partly by Scitex, an Israeli
company for which I had been a consultant, and partly out of patent
royalties due me at MIT, i.e., out of my own pocket. Eventually, the
two students, Mike Polley, now at TI, and Susie Wee, now at HP,
simulated a complete system. It was a multiresolution system with three
levels of quality, using both OFDM and spread spectrum. The base-level
signal -- about NTSC resolution -- had a 6-dB threshold. It worked with
0-dB echoes, and is described in my paper “Advanced Television Systems
for Terrestrial Broadcasting,” Proc. IEEE, 82, 6, June 1995, pp 958-981.
I have a few copies of a complete report, including this paper and the
two theses, for anyone who is seriously interested.

The group I was then working with at MIT decided that it would be useful
to have a meeting of all those working on the subject as a means of
informing the FCC and the various DTV system proponents of this new
technology, then relatively unknown in the US. We had the assistance of
Ken Davies of the Canadian Broadcasting Corp and Gary Tonge of the
Independent Broadcast Authority in the UK in organizing the meeting and
inducing the Europeans to come. All the American system proponents were
invited as well as the FCC. The meeting was held at MIT in October
1992. Every lab in the world working on COFDM was represented, but
almost no system proponents or FCC people came. I still have a number of
the refusal letters; they were all “too busy.”

The next year, a committee representing ACATS did go to Europe in
accordance with the FCC directive. My opinion is that they were simply
going through the motions and were fully determined to find nothing that
would change their development plans. One of the stated reasons for the
turn-down was that their own system had already been fully developed,
and COFDM was in its infancy, to the extent that no equipment could be
purchased to be tested under US conditions. Now, seven years later,
some of the VSB proponents are asking us to wait while it is further
developed. VSB was approved by ACATS in 1995, so one would think that
in the ensuing four years, whatever work needed to be done to eliminate
its problems would have been done by now.

William F. Schreiber, 13 July 1999


> For years, Sinclair and Miller
> conducted a massive disinformation campaign to cast doubt on the
> public about the performance of the 8-VSB system, hinting that it
> doesn't really work and that anyone buying HDTV equipment would be
> screwed as soon as the FCC reversed itself and made COFDM the new
> standard.

MASSIVE? Where did that come from? I have posted factual and specific
information period. Massive what?

And I take umbrage at the suggestion that I "hinted" that 8-VSB doesn't
work. I doesn't work. The simple proof is that few manufacturers have
deemed it wise to get into the business. Pace for one thought it foolish
to get into the 8-VSB business and is now getting out of the COFDM
receiver business because it is so successful (the COFDM receiver market
not Pace). Few retailers stock or advertise 8-VSB receivers, the FCC
felt compelled to MANDATE them and this by a Republican administration
that supposed to believe in less government involvement in business. And
few consumers buy them.

That being said the latest 5th gen receiver, the first that should ever
have been sold, could turn this around. After only seven years of having
a modulation that does not work we have one that works minimally OK.
That is if anyone will make them. LG now suggest that there is no market
for OTA stand alone receivers so they are not going to make them.

There has NEVER been any HINT in what I have said. I have stated flatly
that 8-VSB doesn't work.

HDTV equipment is NOT necessarily 8-VSB equipment. 89% of Americans buy
their TV and HDTV from cable or satellite. Around ONE% receive OTA DTV
HDTV. So at least 89% of Americans can buy an HDTV monitor and connect
it to cable or satellite with NO 8-SVB involvement. So at best my
"massive" campaign to discredit HDTV could only involve a maximum of
some 7 to 8% of Americans who still rely on OTA (2 to 3% have no TV at
all). And only then if the have the money or inclination to consider
HDTV at all. My massive campaign probably only affects a couple of
percent at best. And then only if they read Newsgroups on the Internet.
But thanks for the Massive compliment.

You don't think that OTA DTV is a disaster in the US? They think that it
is in Australia and they have sold 5 times the number of receivers as we
have in 7 years in only 3.

The CEA which was very instrumental in installing 8-VSB in the US now
ignores OTA completely. Take a look at their latest BS.
http://www.ce.org/shared_files/resources/HDTV-Brochure_2005final.pdf
>
> There is just no demand for mobile video, HDTV or otherwise.

How could there be a demand for something that no one is selling? NTSC
has never worked very well fixed let alone mobile. The fact that anyone
made portable NTSC receivers was on the off chance that you could get
something ghostly.


> For 20 years LCD televisions have been available for under $100. When was
> the last time you saw someone walking down the street watching one?

Again who in their right mind would want to watch a flaky NTSC signal?
85% of us gave up on NTSC even for fixed reception in our homes.

> The law and common sense procludes the driver of a vehicle from
> watching TV...Automobile installation of TV is usually banned from
> being installed where anyone in the front seat can see it. So are
> the kids in the back seat demanding to watch Jay Leno or sports?
> No, they are watching kids programs on DVD.

I don't know of anyone who advocates that drivers watch TV so who are
you arguing with? The simple fact is that most vehicles will have DTV
installed in the back seat in a few years and for those that don't
portable TV sets, DVD players and all manner of mobile devices will
offer DTV reception all over the world as well as in the US. Why fixate
on the one place that NO one advocates that people watch TV mobile when
there are hundreds of applications where mobile DTV is desirable. I'd
like to watch DTV on an airplane, bus, boat or at the beach.

Qualcomm, Crown Castle, Sirius and XMRadio have all announced that they
will have national mobile DTV networks. There are others. Here is a
recent story on Qualcomm's bid.

http://www.cedmagazine.com/ced/2005/0105/01cc.htm

Bob Miller
>
 
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Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> scribed:

> ... I'd like to watch DTV on an
> airplane, bus, boat or at the beach.

Enjoy your 5" cofdm tv.

I'll keep my 52" 8VSB HDTV which works perfectly.
 
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not@127.0.0.1 wrote:
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> scribed:
>
>
>>... I'd like to watch DTV on an
>>airplane, bus, boat or at the beach.
>
>
> Enjoy your 5" cofdm tv.
>
> I'll keep my 52" 8VSB HDTV which works perfectly.

Who said anything about 5"? HDTV is possible with Heads up displays that
can be driven by a cell phone receiver. You will have palm sized
projectors that will also include integrated COFDM receivers and cast an
HD image.

These things are both possible now. LED palm sized projectors are due
out this year for around $600. You can surely have an HDTV on your boat
or in your motorhome. HD can have a large screen on a train. It goes on
and on.

There is and was NO reason to give up mobile and portable reception.
There was NO tradeoff. 8-VSB doesn't give us anything that COFDM can't
and it takes away mobility. Not to mention that 8-VSB has wasted 7 years
and counting of our time.

The UK sold 1.5 million receivers in the 4th quarter of 2004 and will
sell 5 million this year. That would be 30 million in the US. They
already have 5 million sold so by the end of this year they will have
sold 10 million COFDM OTA receivers. That would be 60 million in the US.
They have only been at it for two years so far. What if the US had been
at it for the last 7 or even 5 years?

Bob Miller
 

Ivan

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"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tV9Id.1796$r27.1707@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> not@127.0.0.1 wrote:
> > Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> scribed:
> >
> >
> >>... I'd like to watch DTV on an
> >>airplane, bus, boat or at the beach.
> >
> >
> > Enjoy your 5" cofdm tv.
> >
> > I'll keep my 52" 8VSB HDTV which works perfectly.
>
> Who said anything about 5"? HDTV is possible with Heads up displays that
> can be driven by a cell phone receiver. You will have palm sized
> projectors that will also include integrated COFDM receivers and cast an
> HD image.
>
> These things are both possible now. LED palm sized projectors are due
> out this year for around $600. You can surely have an HDTV on your boat
> or in your motorhome. HD can have a large screen on a train. It goes on
> and on.
>
> There is and was NO reason to give up mobile and portable reception.
> There was NO tradeoff. 8-VSB doesn't give us anything that COFDM can't
> and it takes away mobility. Not to mention that 8-VSB has wasted 7 years
> and counting of our time.
>
> The UK sold 1.5 million receivers in the 4th quarter of 2004 and will
> sell 5 million this year. That would be 30 million in the US. They
> already have 5 million sold so by the end of this year they will have
> sold 10 million COFDM OTA receivers. That would be 60 million in the US.
> They have only been at it for two years so far. What if the US had been
> at it for the last 7 or even 5 years?
>

I'm not saying your wrong Bob, but 5 million extra units this year IMO seems
a tad optimistic, considering that we've sold 4 million in the last two (we
already had an existing million subscribers inherited from the defunct
'Ondigital') however with bottom end receivers now having fallen to the mid
£30 mark, blatant advertising by the BBC, and word of mouth, it's anyone's
guess.

By the way I downloaded your video and would hazard a guess that it was made
on Monday, June 30, 2003 am I correct?


> Bob Miller
 
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ivan wrote:
> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:tV9Id.1796$r27.1707@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>not@127.0.0.1 wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> scribed:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>... I'd like to watch DTV on an
>>>>airplane, bus, boat or at the beach.
>>>
>>>
>>>Enjoy your 5" cofdm tv.
>>>
>>>I'll keep my 52" 8VSB HDTV which works perfectly.
>>
>>Who said anything about 5"? HDTV is possible with Heads up displays that
>>can be driven by a cell phone receiver. You will have palm sized
>>projectors that will also include integrated COFDM receivers and cast an
>>HD image.
>>
>>These things are both possible now. LED palm sized projectors are due
>>out this year for around $600. You can surely have an HDTV on your boat
>>or in your motorhome. HD can have a large screen on a train. It goes on
>>and on.
>>
>>There is and was NO reason to give up mobile and portable reception.
>>There was NO tradeoff. 8-VSB doesn't give us anything that COFDM can't
>>and it takes away mobility. Not to mention that 8-VSB has wasted 7 years
>>and counting of our time.
>>
>>The UK sold 1.5 million receivers in the 4th quarter of 2004 and will
>>sell 5 million this year. That would be 30 million in the US. They
>>already have 5 million sold so by the end of this year they will have
>>sold 10 million COFDM OTA receivers. That would be 60 million in the US.
>>They have only been at it for two years so far. What if the US had been
>>at it for the last 7 or even 5 years?
>>
>
>
> I'm not saying your wrong Bob, but 5 million extra units this year IMO seems
> a tad optimistic, considering that we've sold 4 million in the last two (we
> already had an existing million subscribers inherited from the defunct
> 'Ondigital') however with bottom end receivers now having fallen to the mid
> £30 mark, blatant advertising by the BBC, and word of mouth, it's anyone's
> guess.
>
> By the way I downloaded your video and would hazard a guess that it was made
> on Monday, June 30, 2003 am I correct?
>
>
>
>>Bob Miller
>
>
>
They sold 1.5 million in the last quarter. In the first three quarters
of 2004 they sold 1.5 million at least. That is a total of 3 million
last year alone. I expect that each receiver sold so far will generate
at least one new sale this year or 5 million. I underestimated sales the
last quarter and expect to be low again.

In the first quarter of 2004 they did the same sales as they did in the
last quarter of 2003. We will see pretty soon if my estimate is on
target if they sell 1.5 million in the first quarter of this year.

I don't know the exact date the video was made. June 2003 sounds right.
We don't seem to have any impulse noise in NYC if we can't find it with
a 100 Watt transmitter mobile. The US should scrap everything and start
over with COFDM and MPEG4 if OTA broadcasters and OTA itself has any
chance of surviving and growing.

Our Chairman of the FCC is resigning today. Maybe the new one will be a
bit courageous.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller
 
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Bob Miller wrote:

> We don't seem to have any impulse noise in NYC if we can't find it with
> a 100 Watt transmitter mobile.


Bob, you are a commercial shill, a commercial liar,
a commercial bastard.

And you know it.

You mobile demo was not at 19.3 Mb.sec, and you know it.
To compare it's noise performance to a 19.3 Mb/sec
COFDM channel is despicable.

Will you EVER attach the caveat that you are FAR
from duplicating 8-VSB's bitrate in your demos?

Doug McDonald