Laptop Gamer, should I wait for Pascal?

[tverma]

Hey Guys,
I am in the market for a gaming laptop. My budget is a $1000 or less. I know this more or less restricts me to GTX960m. I understand that the 960m is just a Nvidia overclock of the 860m with extremely minute differences. I would certainly like more bang for my buck but I have already been playing games at what people consider unplayable.
My current laptop's specs are:
HP dm4-Pavilion 2191-us
Intel Core-i5 2430m with Intel HD 3000
4gb RAM
I have toughed it out with this laptop for 4 years and its still serving me well for my non-gaming needs. I actually played AC: Black Flag @10-14 fps. You do what you have to do with what you have, I know. But now, I have literally reached a wall gaming-wise. I am unable to play any new games unless its like minus 10fps which is like my threshold for unplayable. I play BF3 @ low settings and manage 15-20 fps after I reduce my res all the way to 600X400. So yes, I need a new computer. I am severely annoyed by NVIDIAs oversight with the GTX 960m and I'm not going to be buying another system for 4-5 years. And with directx12, Nvidia actually performs poorer than AMD in dx12. Yes Nvidia had the upperhand dx11 but things have changed. I would like the maximum bang for my buck and people always come up with "you'll keep waiting forever" because the new best thing is right around the corner, etc. So, I just wanted advice I guess. Should I wait? I know a lot of new things came out like Skylake, DDR4, TB3 (The idea of external gpus is like my favorite thing about it), etc. So feel free to weigh in people... all advice welcome! Thanks

 

[renz496]

So must be a laptop?

 

[tverma]

So must be a laptop?

Yeah, must be a laptop. Portability is key for me.

 

[renz496]

With that price range what kind laptop you can get? 965m only slightly better though still noticeable improvement. But i don't know about the pricing.

 

[tverma]

With that price range what kind laptop you can get? 965m only slightly better though still noticeable improvement. But i don't know about the pricing.

Well let's say we forget about the pricing, I just want to know whether it would be worth it to wait. The bottom line is Pascal is supposed to be a revolutionary leap forward just like AMD did with Radeo R9s. AMD was able to innovate with that technology first whereas Nvidia comes with it next year. Like I said before, not too happy with Nvidia's work with GTX960m and 965m. And its not really future proof unless you get the 970m or 980m. Next year's GPUs are supposed to be great for the scientific reasearch for AIs and such but I'm not sure about gaming. I want a discrete GPU that will last for 4-5 years.

 

[renz496]

4-5 years....even on the highest end like 980ti if you like to max out everything probably you will not going to keep it longer than 2 years. Unless 5 years later you willing to play the game on low setting with frame rates on the low 30s (or even lower). And it gets worse on the laptop since the gpu are much weaker than dekstop counterpart. Is it going to worth or not to wait? Hard to say. Because nvidia intend on maximizing their profit. So instead introducing gpu give big performamce boost in one cycle they will holding back and do small incremental performance upgrade like they did with 860m to 960m to 965m. So even if pascal can bring in big performance jump for the same power consumption nvidia moat likely going to introduce parts that barely faster than current solution but at much lower power conaumption. Right now the fastest gpu in laptop realm are GTX980 (laptop edition). Next instead of intoducing someting faster maybe nvidia will introduce something with similar speed (but with much lower power consumption or something that only faster 10-15 percent only. They will save other part for the next upgrade cycle to bring in 10-20 percent more performance.

 

[tverma]

I am ok with going back to low after 5 years. Consider the fact that I played assasin's creed black flag all low settings @10-15fps and you can tell what a determined person I am. So here's the thing with next year. As we all know, AMD has been dying for a while due to getting beat by intel and nvidia. However next year things are about to change. As it is, with Dx12, AMD beats GTX980ti at a cheaper price! Check these out:
http/www.anandtech.com/show/9233/amds-2016-gpu-roadmap-finfet-high-bandwidth-memory
http/wccftech.com/nvidia-pascal-gpu-gtc-2015/
http/arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/08/directx-12-tested-an-early-win-for-amd-and-disappointment-for-nvidia/
So worth the wait?

 

[renz496]

Hmm that is one of AMD sponsored game. So right now which one are more common to see.....AMD sponsored game or nvidia one? For this holiday season alone hiw many games bearing GE banner vs TWIMTBP banner? One thing for sure nvidia influence is not something that to be taken lightly. They will do all their might to stir things to their way

Anyway in regards to DX12 and nvidia i found this. It was from much recent bench:

http/www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/asus-rog-matrix-gtx-980ti-platinum-edition/16/

If we follow much early bench in that chart 390X performance should match titan x performance right? Since 390X is just a tweaked 290X.

Well i would not so quickly to draw my conclusion though. But if the result continue to stay true then nvidia user might not have to worry to much about DX12 performance.

 

[tverma]

4-5 years....even on the highest end like 980ti if you like to max out everything probably you will not going to keep it longer than 2 years. Unless 5 years later you willing to play the game on low setting with frame rates on the low 30s (or even lower). And it gets worse on the laptop since the gpu are much weaker than dekstop counterpart. Is it going to worth or not to wait? Hard to say. Because nvidia intend on maximizing their profit. So instead introducing gpu give big performamce boost in one cycle they will holding back and do small incremental performance upgrade like they did with 860m to 960m to 965m. So even if pascal can bring in big performance jump for the same power consumption nvidia moat likely going to introduce parts that barely faster than current solution but at much lower power conaumption. Right now the fastest gpu in laptop realm are GTX980 (laptop edition). Next instead of intoducing someting faster maybe nvidia will introduce something with similar speed (but with much lower power consumption or something that only faster 10-15 percent only. They will save other part for the next upgrade cycle to bring in 10-20 percent more performance.

Yeah...that makes sense. But Nvidia currently doesn't even support dx 12 all the way. It only supports parts of it but AMD supports everything. I think I'll just wait since the gpus are the most important thing to me and with Intel's Kaby Lake there will be a gpu increase. Thanks Renz

 

[Poozle]

Hello there! I couldnt help but notice you are in the same boat as I am! As to your question, YES WAIT FOR PASCAL!! Nvidia said they could have up to a 10x performance increase (realistically only about 2.5X the gaming performance... which is 250 F**KING PERCENT!) No doubt Nvidia has prepared the new Pascal to mathc or beat Amd in DX12 as it is a new achitecture ETC. They are shrinking from like a 22-28nm die size to 14ish which is much better for heat and performance allowing better battery life and gaming on the go. Think of the difference between the 700 Series and the 900 Series. They just about match up with their predecessor (960=770, 970m=DESKTOP 960.) A new laptop also has a GTX 980 DESKTOP GPU, howeever they will be pricy and 17.3 inches adn Overclockable CPUs form Skylake. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DX12! I can not tell you how little this matters as THERE ARE ALMOST NO GAMES USING IT YET. wait for other games to launch. DX12 mostly brings being able to SLI my 980TI with my 290x (cant wait for that) in some games that devs add the support for it for.

 

[Poozle]

Look at MSI's GS40 or Razer's 14ijnch blade. They both feature 970m's in a 14inch small form factor weighing in at 3.7LBS and 4.4 Lbs respectively as well as SSD's, I7 6700 laptops processors (which make almsot no difference now a days)
https/youtu.be/Jegoe6s0-6w
youtube vid of a 4790k desktop processor in a laptop compared to a 4700hq or something Basically, it offers no great performance gains. Please look at those laptops as I am deciding between them right now. The Razer is a little thinner, a nicer 3200*2000 QHD+ display with touchscreen, but does feature a 4720hq and not a 6700hq as in MSI's. However MSI is lighter, has more storage options, and is much cheaper. at 1600$ compared to Razerblades 2000$-2700$ pricetag

 

[Poozle]

The reason why you would get the RazerBlade is that of aesthetics and namebrand. Both have fairly noisy fans at 40-50 Decibels. The MSI might have a bigger battery (double the size from a preview you can see a larger than normal battery. The GS40 will be coming soon. If you really care about how loud they can get during full load, Get a pair of BOSE noise cancelling in ear headphones for 300$. I have these as they are quite amazing at what they do and they DO block out 50 decibles of noise as I measured with my phone and plugged my headphones in and could not hear them WITHOUT music playing.
https/www.bose.com/products/headphones/earphones/quietcomfort-20i-acoustic-noise-cancelling-headphones.html
https/youtu.be/DJeXUKFvcHs
I cant find the direct comparison between the 4790k and 4720hq but the end result was... about 1 FPs difference... which could be coincidence.

 

[renz496]

In regards to DX12 not even AMD have full support for it. Currently even Fiji (those Fury gpu) lack the hardware needed for FL12_1. As it is FL12_1 is exclusive only to nvidia maxwell v2 hardware. Plus don't underestimated what nvidia can do as well. They said nvidia will address stuff like async compute with upcoming Pascal. Then i found this:
http/www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/asus-rog-matrix-gtx-980ti-platinum-edition/16/

If this continue maybe nvidia doesn't need pascal to compete with amd on asyc compute.

 

[Poozle]

In regards to DX12 not even AMD have full support for it. Currently even Fiji (those Fury gpu) lack the hardware needed for FL12_1. As it is FL12_1 is exclusive only to nvidia maxwell v2 hardware. Plus don't underestimated what nvidia can do as well. They said nvidia will address stuff like async compute with upcoming Pascal. Then i found this:
http/www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/zardon/asus-rog-matrix-gtx-980ti-platinum-edition/16/

If this continue maybe nvidia doesn't need pascal to compete with amd on asyc compute.

So the end result is the same. Wait for pascal as they cannot allow the same chip which will allow better performance. This is a "better bang for your buck". Go with a Lenovo Y series laptop. They are cheap, have an ips screen, good cooling from what my y510p looks like, and is fairly quiet with a nice keyboard and little flex. They are thicker and slightly heavier at 6LBS and 1.1 inches thick

 

[tverma]

Hello there! I couldnt help but notice you are in the same boat as I am! As to your question, YES WAIT FOR PASCAL!! Nvidia said they could have up to a 10x performance increase (realistically only about 2.5X the gaming performance... which is 250 F**KING PERCENT!) No doubt Nvidia has prepared the new Pascal to mathc or beat Amd in DX12 as it is a new achitecture ETC. They are shrinking from like a 22-28nm die size to 14ish which is much better for heat and performance allowing better battery life and gaming on the go. Think of the difference between the 700 Series and the 900 Series. They just about match up with their predecessor (960=770, 970m=DESKTOP 960.) A new laptop also has a GTX 980 DESKTOP GPU, howeever they will be pricy and 17.3 inches adn Overclockable CPUs form Skylake. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT DX12! I can not tell you how little this matters as THERE ARE ALMOST NO GAMES USING IT YET. wait for other games to launch. DX12 mostly brings being able to SLI my 980TI with my 290x (cant wait for that) in some games that devs add the support for it for.

Glad to see that I'm not alone in this

 

[Poozle]

If you wait, do expect higher pricetags as it is a new technology. Save up and extra 500$ just in case they are 1500-2000$ it might be worth it getting a 1070m or 1080m

 

[tverma]

If you wait, do expect higher pricetags as it is a new technology. Save up and extra 500$ just in case they are 1500-2000$ it might be worth it getting a 1070m or 1080m

Ahh. $1000 is my budget though. I expect Nvidia and AMD to be in a fierce competition though next year. This may very well be AMDs last stand. I personally hope that AMD triumphs over Nvidia. Competition is key in technology. We know Intel has been low balling it for years... What do you think?

 

[renz496]

If you wait, do expect higher pricetags as it is a new technology. Save up and extra 500$ just in case they are 1500-2000$ it might be worth it getting a 1070m or 1080m

Ahh. $1000 is my budget though. I expect Nvidia and AMD to be in a fierce competition though next year. This may very well be AMDs last stand. I personally hope that AMD triumphs over Nvidia. Competition is key in technology. We know Intel has been low balling it for years... What do you think?

on desktop PC it might be the case. but on laptop it has been dominated by nvidia since kepler generation. not that AMD did not have competitive offering but they are the one refusing OEM offer to be used in product. it was actually one of the thing that Rory Read did when he helm the company to reduce AMD financial bleed. before that AMD used to dominate the laptop market. and they have quite significant position as well. back then nvidia dominate 65% market on the desktop. but on mobile it was a direct opposite. yes in mobile AMD used to have around 65% of the market. nvidia increase their power efficiency competitiveness with kepler but AMD decision to refuse OEM offer actually become the final nail in the coffin to kill AMD in mobile segment.

well i'd expect we will see GP104/GP107 on consumer space next year. in desktop we might see something interesting. but for the laptops honestly i'm not sure. just look how performance of 860m to 960m. barely noticeable. with nvidia dominating the laptop market i'm afraid next year x60m part (1060m or 1600m?) might not that much faster than current 960m. instead of giving us the performance improvement that we want they might push us to spend more if we really want something better.

 

[Poozle]

If you wait, do expect higher pricetags as it is a new technology. Save up and extra 500$ just in case they are 1500-2000$ it might be worth it getting a 1070m or 1080m

Ahh. $1000 is my budget though. I expect Nvidia and AMD to be in a fierce competition though next year. This may very well be AMDs last stand. I personally hope that AMD triumphs over Nvidia. Competition is key in technology. We know Intel has been low balling it for years... What do you think?

I do not use AMD in my current build and that being Intel and Nvidia are winning. Pure performance and drivers are on nvidias side. AMD has not lowered their prices enough for me to believe that nvidia is over pricing their cards so I will, of course, choose nvidia. I DO NOT!!! Repeat: DO NOT WANT AMD TO DIE OUT! If AMD dies out, Nvidia will pull an Intel and hike their prices so high, that a every other year upgraded PC will not be a thing anymore except for the super rich. They need to succeed this year. They already played most of their cards. Gl AMD.

 

[renz496]

Nah. AMD will continue to live. But might not as AMD that we once know. If i remember correctly in one of their earning they mention about moving away from PC market and will focus more on semi custom market where they will build specific product for specific company in large volume. I heard some rumor that Tonga exist because ot their deal with Apple. And there is funny talk about AMD did not release full tonga to radeon lineup because it was part of their deal with Apple.