LG chooses COFDM

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

http/www.physorg.com/news1999.html

If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty
rights to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting to
cell phones?

Qualcomm didn't choose 8-VSB either for their mobile US DTV plans, they
choose DVB-H COFDM.
Japan choose ISDB-T COFDM for both mobile and fixed delivery of HDTV and
DTV to cell phones.
Australia picked DVB-T COFDM after dropping 8-VSB like a rotten egg.
Taiwan had a riot in their Congress where broadcasters demanded that
they reverse their decision for 8-VSB and choose COFDM.

WiMax is COFDM
WiFi is COFDM for 802.11 a and g

DAB worldwide including the US and Korea is COFDM
iBiquity (another digital on channel radio system) is COFDM

China will go with either DVB-T and H or their own modulation called
DMB-T (not the same as the Korean system) all COFDM.

ENG (Electronic News Gathering) uses COFDM that means most news in real
time from remote locations is brought to you with COFDM

Wireless DTV studio cameras use COFDM

The only place that the ancient and problem riddled technology called
8-VSB still exist is in the US, Canadian, S. Korea and possibly Mexican
DTV broadcasting.

Bob Miller

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> http/www.physorg.com/news1999.html
>
> If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty
> rights to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting to
> cell phones?
>

It's because 8-VSB isn't optimized for mobile reception. I thought that
you knew that?

Matthew

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

X-No-archive: yes

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
newsqMmd.1379$Tq6.844@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> http/www.physorg.com/news1999.html
>
> If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty
> rights to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting to
> cell phones?
>
=============================
Because it is for mobile use.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>> If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty
>> rights to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting to
>> cell phones?
>
>It's because 8-VSB isn't optimized for mobile reception. I thought that
>you knew that?

How not-optimized for mobile reception is 8-VSB? Is it a serious
problem for pedestrians walking or jogging? Just how big a screen
can pedestrians carry, anyway?

It's bad enough that there are pedestrians talking on cellphones
who walk straight into moving DART trains, drop the cellphone, then
almost lose their hand reaching under the train to get the cellphone
(I've seen this happen twice). I hope we're not going to have
drivers watching television while they are driving.

Gordon L. Burditt

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :


>DAB worldwide including the US and Korea is COFDM
>iBiquity (another digital on channel radio system) is COFDM
>
>China will go with either DVB-T and H or their own modulation called
>DMB-T (not the same as the Korean system) all COFDM.

Hello,

As I know China choose DMB-T like South Korea and not DVB-H for their
mobile system. They just installed 12 new band III transmitters around
Beijing and Guangdong. cf :
http/www.wohnort.demon.co.uk/DAB/a-f.html#China

DAB Eureka 147 and DMB are fully compatible, an old DAB receiver is able
to decode a multiplex with DMB services in it.

Bye.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Nicolas Croiset wrote:
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :
>
>
>
>>DAB worldwide including the US and Korea is COFDM
>>iBiquity (another digital on channel radio system) is COFDM
>>
>>China will go with either DVB-T and H or their own modulation called
>>DMB-T (not the same as the Korean system) all COFDM.
>
>
> Hello,
>
> As I know China choose DMB-T like South Korea and not DVB-H for their
> mobile system. They just installed 12 new band III transmitters around
> Beijing and Guangdong. cf :
> http/www.wohnort.demon.co.uk/DAB/a-f.html#China
>
> DAB Eureka 147 and DMB are fully compatible, an old DAB receiver is able
> to decode a multiplex with DMB services in it.
>
> Bye.
>
I think you have to be carefully here. DMB using DAB spectrum is
different from the proposed Chinese DMB-T modulation.

It is interesting that the Chinese are using DMB on DAB frequencies
while testing their own DMB-T for use in DTV OTA. Both are COFDM based
however.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> http/www.physorg.com/news1999.html
>>
>> If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty
>> rights to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting
>> to cell phones?
>>
>
> It's because 8-VSB isn't optimized for mobile reception. I thought that
> you knew that?
>
> Matthew

What I know is that 8-VSB isn't optimized period. COFDM was not
developed for mobile reception but for BETTER reception. The fact that
it can be used for mobile reception is a testimony to how well it works
period.

The fact that 8-VSB cannot be received mobile is a testimony to how bad
it was designed.

The first principle that guided the development of COFDM was how do we
solve the problem of TV broadcasting called multipath both dynamic and
static. This problem has plagued analog TV broadcasting since its
inception. In going to a digital mode those developing COFDM for use in
DTV broadcasting thought that since with digital you don't have a grace
period with multipath where you can still see some of the game though
distorted or snowy, with digital you would experience total loss of all
video. This was deemed unacceptable. Multipath HAD to be solved.

COFDM was designed to solve multipath and it does.

8-VSB was designed to just mimic, do as well as or duplicate NTSC
analog. That was the directive and that is what they did. They then
tried to COMPARE the effects of multipath on the analog signal to the
affects of multipath on the digital 8-VSB received signal. IT IS
IMPOSSIBLE!!!!

How can you say that a certain amount of snow or distortion is the
equivalent of a certain period of time with NO signal.

The basic tenet of the design of 8-VSB was and is flawed.

COFDM was designed by those interested in improving TV with digital and
they succeeded. 8-VSB designers tried to just duplicate NTSC and they
failed.

That is until the 5th gen receivers which will do better than NTSC. But
we have waited for seven years for no reason and even 5th gen receivers
come nowhere near where COFDM was in 1999.

Bob Miller

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>
>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>>> http/www.physorg.com/news1999.html
>>>
>>> If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty
>>> rights to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting
>>> to cell phones?
>>>
>>
>> It's because 8-VSB isn't optimized for mobile reception. I thought
>> that you knew that?
>>
>> Matthew
>
>
> What I know is that 8-VSB isn't optimized period.

Then why do so many people report such good success in using ATSC
receivers from any generation?

Matthew

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

X-No-archive: yes

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:spOmd.1537$Tq6.1058@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> The fact that 8-VSB cannot be received mobile is a testimony to how bad it
> was designed.
>
==============================
Why?
Do you watch HDTV in your car?

 

[David]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
news:10pndllepb8n28d@corp.supernews.com...
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>> http/www.physorg.com/news1999.html
>>>>
>>>> If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty
>>>> rights to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting to
>>>> cell phones?
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's because 8-VSB isn't optimized for mobile reception. I thought that
>>> you knew that?
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>
>>
>> What I know is that 8-VSB isn't optimized period.
>
> Then why do so many people report such good success in using ATSC
> receivers from any generation?
>
> Matthew

And I wonder how I just googled up more that 200 complaints about COFDM
"impulse interference picture freezing" from aus.tv.digital?

http/makeashorterlink.com/?L2EE12EC9

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

>
> Then why do so many people report such good success in using ATSC
> receivers from any generation?
>
> Matthew

Because as the MSTV test showed 8-VSB works well in a percentage of
receive locations. In cities I think as high as 30% in places like
Dallas Texas as high as 80% with a range of percentages in between.
Little improvement has occurred over the years. The problem is that
those % are disastrous as the MSTV test concluded. Isolated instances
prove nothing even when there are a lot of them. Even if you have
100,000 report from the plains that 8-VSB works fine it doesn't help the
70% in cities like New York where reception is so bad that very few even
try.

Everyone involved with 8-VSB agreed after the MSTV test that 8-VSB was
not good enough by far for the US DTV transition. It was promised that
it could be fixed so that it would be good enough. The promise was that
a fix would be found in six months to a year. It has taken five years so
far and while there is a minimally acceptable receiver in the works it
is not here yet.

In Australia there is a saying, "I'm fine Jack", which is said about
someone who if they got theirs could care less about anyone else.

Well we have a stagnate DTV transition in the US. It would be far better
if all of us could use our DTV spectrum.

It could be said about a lot of early adopters that they are "I'm fine
Jack".

Bob Miller

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>
>>
>> Then why do so many people report such good success in using ATSC
>> receivers from any generation?
>>
>
> It could be said about a lot of early adopters that they are "I'm fine
> Jack".
>
>

Given that people with problems typically post a lot more about getting
solutions than people who are having no problems and need no solutions
one would expect, given your claim, that this ng would be flooded with
complaints.

Guess what?

It isn't.

Matthew

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :

>Nicolas Croiset wrote:
>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :
>>
>>
>>
>>>DAB worldwide including the US and Korea is COFDM
>>>iBiquity (another digital on channel radio system) is COFDM
>>>
>>>China will go with either DVB-T and H or their own modulation called
>>>DMB-T (not the same as the Korean system) all COFDM.
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> As I know China choose DMB-T like South Korea and not DVB-H for their
>> mobile system. They just installed 12 new band III transmitters around
>> Beijing and Guangdong. cf :
>> http/www.wohnort.demon.co.uk/DAB/a-f.html#China
>>
>> DAB Eureka 147 and DMB are fully compatible, an old DAB receiver is able
>> to decode a multiplex with DMB services in it.
>>
>> Bye.
>>
>I think you have to be carefully here. DMB using DAB spectrum is
>different from the proposed Chinese DMB-T modulation.
>
>It is interesting that the Chinese are using DMB on DAB frequencies
>while testing their own DMB-T for use in DTV OTA. Both are COFDM based
>however.

China use DAB Eureka 147 modulation for their DMB-T transmission like
south Korea.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Nicolas Croiset wrote:
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :
>
>
>>Nicolas Croiset wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>DAB worldwide including the US and Korea is COFDM
>>>>iBiquity (another digital on channel radio system) is COFDM
>>>>
>>>>China will go with either DVB-T and H or their own modulation called
>>>>DMB-T (not the same as the Korean system) all COFDM.
>>>
>>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>As I know China choose DMB-T like South Korea and not DVB-H for their
>>>mobile system. They just installed 12 new band III transmitters around
>>>Beijing and Guangdong. cf :
>>>http/www.wohnort.demon.co.uk/DAB/a-f.html#China
>>>
>>>DAB Eureka 147 and DMB are fully compatible, an old DAB receiver is able
>>>to decode a multiplex with DMB services in it.
>>>
>>>Bye.
>>>
>>
>>I think you have to be carefully here. DMB using DAB spectrum is
>>different from the proposed Chinese DMB-T modulation.
>>
>>It is interesting that the Chinese are using DMB on DAB frequencies
>>while testing their own DMB-T for use in DTV OTA. Both are COFDM based
>>however.
>
>
> China use DAB Eureka 147 modulation for their DMB-T transmission like
> south Korea.
>
>

DAB Eureka 147 is COFDM based.
http/www.worlddab.org/eureka.aspx

Again you have to be careful. China is developing their own modulation
system for DTV broadcasting, DMB-T, which is also COFDM based, but which
is a different animal from the DMB COFDM modulation being used by S.
Korea and as you say China for broadcasting in the DAB spectrum.

China's DMB-T (COFDM)
http/neasia.nikkeibp.com/nea/200402/conele_288146.html
"DMB-T uses the same orthogonal frequency division multiplex (OFDM)
modulation scheme as used in Europe and Japan. There are 4k carriers
(more precisely, 3,780), modulated with quadrature phase shift keying
(QPSK) or quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM). A pseudo-noise (PN)
sequence is inserted into the guard interval, however, for
synchronization and other purposes. The ADTB-T standard proposal, on the
other hand, uses a single carrier wave instead of OFDM. The modulation
may be 4- or 16-level QAM, or offset QAM."

Korea's DMB (COFDM) for use in DAB
http/www.worlddab.org/images/WorldDAB-398.pdf

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>Then why do so many people report such good success in using ATSC
>receivers from any generation?
>

C'mon now Matt, you know BOB doesn't want to hear that. He effectively filters
out all the myriad of posts over the years about how successful 8VSB really is.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004, Bob Miller wrote:
> If 8-VSB is so good why did LG, the owners of most of the IP royalty rights
> to 8-VSB choose COFDM for their DMB mobile video broadcasting to cell phones?

The same reason that LG chose CDMA for the phones that they produce for
Verizon and SPRINT, and choose GSM for the phones that they produce for
Cingular and T-Mobile.

Note, by the way, that what is being discussed is not broadcast
television, much less HDTV. It is 18fps video content provided by the
mobile phone providers.

Consequently, it is off-topic for alt.tv.tech.hdtv. Bob Miller knows
this, but being a psychotic crackpot, continues to interject into a forum
where he isn't wanted.

-- Mark --

http/staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :

>Nicolas Croiset wrote:

>>>It is interesting that the Chinese are using DMB on DAB frequencies
>>>while testing their own DMB-T for use in DTV OTA. Both are COFDM based
>>>however.
>>
>>
>> China use DAB Eureka 147 modulation for their DMB-T transmission like
>> south Korea.
>>
>>
>
>DAB Eureka 147 is COFDM based.
>http/www.worlddab.org/eureka.aspx
>
>Again you have to be careful. China is developing their own modulation
>system for DTV broadcasting, DMB-T, which is also COFDM based, but which
>is a different animal from the DMB COFDM modulation being used by S.
>Korea and as you say China for broadcasting in the DAB spectrum.
>
>China's DMB-T (COFDM)
>http/neasia.nikkeibp.com/nea/200402/conele_288146.html
>"DMB-T uses the same orthogonal frequency division multiplex (OFDM)
>modulation scheme as used in Europe and Japan. There are 4k carriers
>(more precisely, 3,780), modulated with quadrature phase shift keying
>(QPSK) or quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM). A pseudo-noise (PN)
>sequence is inserted into the guard interval, however, for
>synchronization and other purposes. The ADTB-T standard proposal, on the
>other hand, uses a single carrier wave instead of OFDM. The modulation
>may be 4- or 16-level QAM, or offset QAM."
>

You have different trials in China, the one you speak and now China had
chosen the DMB-T Korean system.

http/www.proaudioasia.com/paa/article.asp?cid=328
http/neasia.nikkeibp.com/nea/200404/techana_298749.html

If you type in google these terms "dmb china dab" you will see a lot of
results.
Bye.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>And I wonder how I just googled up more that 200 complaints about COFDM
>"impulse interference picture freezing" from aus.tv.digital?

I bet BOB has more than 200 excuses for those!

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

>
> How can you say that a certain amount of snow or distortion is the
> equivalent of a certain period of time with NO signal.
>

What happens to a COFDM signal at the threshold? Does it have the cliff
edge effect like 8VSB, or is it more like analog?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.digital-tv,alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Nicolas Croiset wrote:
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote :
>
>
>>Nicolas Croiset wrote:
>
>
>>>>It is interesting that the Chinese are using DMB on DAB frequencies
>>>>while testing their own DMB-T for use in DTV OTA. Both are COFDM based
>>>>however.
>>>
>>>
>>>China use DAB Eureka 147 modulation for their DMB-T transmission like
>>>south Korea.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>DAB Eureka 147 is COFDM based.
>>http/www.worlddab.org/eureka.aspx
>>
>>Again you have to be careful. China is developing their own modulation
>>system for DTV broadcasting, DMB-T, which is also COFDM based, but which
>>is a different animal from the DMB COFDM modulation being used by S.
>>Korea and as you say China for broadcasting in the DAB spectrum.
>>
>>China's DMB-T (COFDM)
>>http/neasia.nikkeibp.com/nea/200402/conele_288146.html
>>"DMB-T uses the same orthogonal frequency division multiplex (OFDM)
>>modulation scheme as used in Europe and Japan. There are 4k carriers
>>(more precisely, 3,780), modulated with quadrature phase shift keying
>>(QPSK) or quadrature amplitude modulation (QAM). A pseudo-noise (PN)
>>sequence is inserted into the guard interval, however, for
>>synchronization and other purposes. The ADTB-T standard proposal, on the
>>other hand, uses a single carrier wave instead of OFDM. The modulation
>>may be 4- or 16-level QAM, or offset QAM."
>>
>
>
> You have different trials in China, the one you speak and now China had
> chosen the DMB-T Korean system.
>
> http/www.proaudioasia.com/paa/article.asp?cid=328
> http/neasia.nikkeibp.com/nea/200404/techana_298749.html
>
> If you type in google these terms "dmb china dab" you will see a lot of
> results.
> Bye.

Sorry again, if you do a google on "dmb-t china dtv" you will see a lot
of results also. China is developing its OWN modulation based on COFDM
called DMB-T and it has nothing to do with what Korea or China is doing
with the Korean DMB modulation used on the DAB spectrum.

http/www.china.org.cn/english/CAS-e/6942.htm
Digital Multimedia Broadcast-Terrestrial(DMB-T) in China is being
developed by Tsinghua University in Shenzhen.

"Tsinghua University has also developed a DTV protocol, Digital
Multimedia Broadcast-Terrestrial(DMB-T), that could allow an 8-MHz DTV
channel to be reused for cellular network applications.

"We have 10 million people living in Beijing alone,” Yang said. "If all
these people wanted data services and video-on-demand services at the
same time, we’d have a problem. We need a technology that supports
multiple RF, signal RF and cellular networks."

Developing its own intellectual property is another goal of China's DTV
effort. Yang described Tsinghua’s DMB-T approach as "a lot of public
domain technologies combined together." But Key Lab has filed for a
patent covering the entire system. Seven others have been filed for
individual transmission technologies."

Your second url,
http/neasia.nikkeibp.com/nea/200404/techana_298749.html
talks of the DMB-T modulation being developed in China which is NOT
based on Eureka 147 COFDM but is based on COFDM. Eureka 147 is an early
version of COFDM that was developed for the DAB (Digital Audio
Broadcasting) spectrum and this is what is being used in Korea. They are
using it however to broadcast both audio and video. That is what they
are doing in Guangdong.

The DMB being used in Guangdong on the DAB spectrum to deliver audio and
video is NOT the same DMB-T being developed by Tsinghua University in
Shenzhen.

Both use COFDM but one uses an older version Eureka 147. One is in
development for use in regular TV spectrum with 8 MHz channels the other
for use in DAB spectrum with 1.25 MHz channels.

Bob Miller