recording classical voice

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Question. how does one go about "treating" a small room to record a
classical singer . Before I start hammering old sleeping bags to the
ceiling, buying wall treatments or panels, are there some simple rules?
Room is 14 by 10, height is 9 . .Thank you .



--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
 
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:38:00 GMT, "Edward Bridge"
<edbridge@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>Question. how does one go about "treating" a small room to record a
>classical singer . Before I start hammering old sleeping bags to the
>ceiling, buying wall treatments or panels, are there some simple rules?
>Room is 14 by 10, height is 9 . .Thank you . <snip>

Wrong! Go location and do it in a closed theater or rent a school
auditorium with low incidental noise on a weekend. Churches work,
too. Trying to capture classical voice in a shoebox studio more
suited for voiceovers is folly.

dB
 
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Edward Bridge <edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>Question. how does one go about "treating" a small room to record a
>classical singer . Before I start hammering old sleeping bags to the
>ceiling, buying wall treatments or panels, are there some simple rules?
>Room is 14 by 10, height is 9 . .Thank you .

Get a much bigger room.

Really.

If you absolutely HAVE to record it in a place like this, making things
as dead as possible, miking both the head and the stomach, and putting
eveything through fake reverb MIGHT be a good way to deal with it.

But really, can't you borrow a big room somewhere?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cpo76r$dd6$1@panix2.panix.com...
> Edward Bridge <edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >Question. how does one go about "treating" a small room to record a
> >classical singer . Before I start hammering old sleeping bags to the
> >ceiling, buying wall treatments or panels, are there some simple rules?
> >Room is 14 by 10, height is 9 . .Thank you .
>
> Get a much bigger room.
>
> Really.
>
> If you absolutely HAVE to record it in a place like this, making things
> as dead as possible, miking both the head and the stomach, and putting
> eveything through fake reverb MIGHT be a good way to deal with it.
>
> But really, can't you borrow a big room somewhere?

Hi Scot.

Thank you. I was afraid that would be the answer, We can use the *church ,
there's a lot of REAL reverb there , she loves singing there, I hate setting
up breaking down and hiring the sitters :>) but I guess that's the answer.
..ouch.
* huge old city church built in 1890. .

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
 
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> Thank you. I was afraid that would be the answer, We can use the *church
,
> there's a lot of REAL reverb there , she loves singing there, I hate
setting
> up breaking down and hiring the sitters :>) but I guess that's the
answer.

You will be much happier, and I suspect the performance will be better too.
Phil Woods recorded an album in a church in NYC, with Bob Katz recording for
Chesky, that captured the space and the players beautifully. It can be
done.

Best regards,

John
 
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In article <F%Nvd.4145$2J2.2903@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net> edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net writes:

> We can use the *church ,
> there's a lot of REAL reverb there , she loves singing there, I hate setting
> up breaking down and hiring the sitters :>) but I guess that's the answer.
> .ouch.

Charge more money. Or charge SOME money. Clients will appreciate your
work more if they have to pay for it.

--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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"John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:RoOvd.32883$Rf1.26298@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> You will be much happier, and I suspect the performance will be better
too.
> Phil Woods recorded an album in a church in NYC, with Bob Katz recording
for
> Chesky, that captured the space and the players beautifully. It can be
> done.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John
Your right, she always sings better there. I guess it mobile again. um um
should I go with DAT and a old aprex107 preamp or just use a old Nagra
reel to reel . I can't leave anything there , it will be gone in a day.

Thankyou
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/


"DeserTBoB" <desertb@rglobal.net> wrote in message
news:brivr0lhhsnnu2nlnhlfq9makfnrmb8kts@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:38:00 GMT, "Edward Bridge"
Trying to capture classical voice in a shoebox studio more
> suited for voiceovers is folly.
>
> dB

You know, I was thinking and maybe the reson why I post the questions at
here was,I would buy what ever it takes to do this in my room. . And when I
talk to the different sales people I would start hearing the whites lies in
their voice when I said clascial singing. ..one person did say . ".our
panels are really just for voiceovers.

Thank you

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
 
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I can also tell you , Phil Ramone recorded Pavarotti
with a small- dia condenser about 10 feet away.
I know this wasn't your question, but you already got the answer you didn't
want. ;-)
Tom

"Edward Bridge" <edbridge@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:qSXvd.59$Z47.8@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> news:RoOvd.32883$Rf1.26298@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> > You will be much happier, and I suspect the performance will be better
> too.
> > Phil Woods recorded an album in a church in NYC, with Bob Katz recording
> for
> > Chesky, that captured the space and the players beautifully. It can be
> > done.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > John
> Your right, she always sings better there. I guess it mobile again. um um
> should I go with DAT and a old aprex107 preamp or just use a old Nagra
> reel to reel . I can't leave anything there , it will be gone in a day.
>
> Thankyou
> Peace,
> Ed Bridge
> Brooklyn N.Y.
> http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
>
>
> "DeserTBoB" <desertb@rglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:brivr0lhhsnnu2nlnhlfq9makfnrmb8kts@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:38:00 GMT, "Edward Bridge"
> Trying to capture classical voice in a shoebox studio more
> > suited for voiceovers is folly.
> >
> > dB
>
> You know, I was thinking and maybe the reson why I post the questions at
> here was,I would buy what ever it takes to do this in my room. . And when
I
> talk to the different sales people I would start hearing the whites lies
in
> their voice when I said clascial singing. ..one person did say . ".our
> panels are really just for voiceovers.
>
> Thank you
>
> --
> Peace,
> Ed Bridge
> Brooklyn N.Y.
> http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
>
>
>
 
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Mike

your are a 100% right but. ."she" is the mother for my four children, my
wife and is still stops traffic on those hot summers days, also make more
money as a voice teacher than I as a guitar teacher/ guitar dealer. . I got
a good thing going Bro. :>) .


I just wish that when we practice in the morning we could keep some of the
takes. .Yesterday , for once I did 'nt clip any notes on the guitar and she
sounded great (always does) but on the recording , one hears, SHOEBOX.. I
have recording of us in the church during concerts and it's sounds really
good but , . .there seems to be a few bad notes from me, or some one coughs
,drops the pogram , , truck goes by ... .

Thanks

Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgekaldromusic.com/
"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1103114693k@trad...
>
> In article <F%Nvd.4145$2J2.2903@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>
edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net writes:
>
> > We can use the *church ,
> > there's a lot of REAL reverb there , she loves singing there, I hate
setting
> > up breaking down and hiring the sitters :>) but I guess that's the
answer.
> > .ouch.
>
> Charge more money. Or charge SOME money. Clients will appreciate your
> work more if they have to pay for it.
>
> --
> I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
> However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
> lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
> you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
> and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo
 
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Edward Bridge <edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>your are a 100% right but. ."she" is the mother for my four children, my
>wife and is still stops traffic on those hot summers days, also make more
>money as a voice teacher than I as a guitar teacher/ guitar dealer. . I got
>a good thing going Bro. :>) .

All the more reason to get her a nice big room and pull back.

>I just wish that when we practice in the morning we could keep some of the
>takes. .Yesterday , for once I did 'nt clip any notes on the guitar and she
>sounded great (always does) but on the recording , one hears, SHOEBOX.. I
>have recording of us in the church during concerts and it's sounds really
>good but , . .there seems to be a few bad notes from me, or some one coughs
>,drops the pogram , , truck goes by ... .

One trick is to try using some fake reverb with a long delay on it, and play
with the timing so that the fake reverb starts to pick up when the real room
reverb drops off. You can fiddle around with EQ on the reverb send to try
and match the overall character to that of the original room, too. It won't
sound like the real thing, but it'll be a lot better than nothing.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 16:27:57 +0100, Edward Bridge wrote:

>> Charge more money. Or charge SOME money. Clients will appreciate your
>> work more if they have to pay for it.

> . I got a good thing going Bro. :>) .

It seems you don't have to charge to get appreciation.

> I just wish that when we practice in the morning we could keep some of
> the takes. .Yesterday , for once I did 'nt clip any notes on the guitar
> and she sounded great (always does) but on the recording , one hears,
> SHOEBOX.. I have recording of us in the church during concerts and it's
> sounds really good but , . .there seems to be a few bad notes from me,
> or some one coughs ,drops the pogram , , truck goes by ... .

A shoebox will never be a concert hall, but there are some tips on:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

--
Chel van Gennip
Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com
 
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"Chel van Gennip" <chel@vangennip.nl> wrote in message
news:32b8gnF3jakloU1@individual.net...
Chel van Gennip
> Visit Serg van Gennip's site http://www.serg.vangennip.com

Hi Chel van Gennip
I spent some time just now looking over the site , there's so much to
learn, I will enjoy hitting print and reading tonight, thank you

--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
 
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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cpppus$it0$1@panix2.panix.com...
> One trick is to try using some fake reverb with a long delay on it, and
play
> with the timing so that the fake reverb starts to pick up when the real
room
> reverb drops off. You can fiddle around with EQ on the reverb send to try
> and match the overall character to that of the original room, too. It
won't
> sound like the real thing, but it'll be a lot better than nothing.

I hate to sound really foolish but this technique implies to with shoe box
room


--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
 
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I was wrong, it was Domingo, and maybe more than 10 feet away.
Tom


"Tommy B" <mrtomm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:hxYvd.151$9j5.122@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> I can also tell you , Phil Ramone recorded Pavarotti
> with a small- dia condenser about 10 feet away.
> I know this wasn't your question, but you already got the answer you
didn't
> want. ;-)
> Tom
>
> "Edward Bridge" <edbridge@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:qSXvd.59$Z47.8@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > "John Halliburton" <j_challiburton@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> > news:RoOvd.32883$Rf1.26298@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> > > You will be much happier, and I suspect the performance will be better
> > too.
> > > Phil Woods recorded an album in a church in NYC, with Bob Katz
recording
> > for
> > > Chesky, that captured the space and the players beautifully. It can
be
> > > done.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > >
> > > John
> > Your right, she always sings better there. I guess it mobile again. um
um
> > should I go with DAT and a old aprex107 preamp or just use a old
Nagra
> > reel to reel . I can't leave anything there , it will be gone in a day.
> >
> > Thankyou
> > Peace,
> > Ed Bridge
> > Brooklyn N.Y.
> > http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
> >
> >
> > "DeserTBoB" <desertb@rglobal.net> wrote in message
> > news:brivr0lhhsnnu2nlnhlfq9makfnrmb8kts@4ax.com...
> > > On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 01:38:00 GMT, "Edward Bridge"
> > Trying to capture classical voice in a shoebox studio more
> > > suited for voiceovers is folly.
> > >
> > > dB
> >
> > You know, I was thinking and maybe the reson why I post the questions at
> > here was,I would buy what ever it takes to do this in my room. . And
when
> I
> > talk to the different sales people I would start hearing the whites lies
> in
> > their voice when I said clascial singing. ..one person did say . ".our
> > panels are really just for voiceovers.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > --
> > Peace,
> > Ed Bridge
> > Brooklyn N.Y.
> > http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
 
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"Tommy B" <mrtomm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Bu3wd.342$RH4.12@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> I was wrong, it was Domingo, and maybe more than 10 feet away.
> Tom

either way, why did Phil use a small da?
--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
 
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Edward Bridge <edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Tommy B" <mrtomm@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>news:Bu3wd.342$RH4.12@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>> I was wrong, it was Domingo, and maybe more than 10 feet away.
>> Tom
>
>either way, why did Phil use a small da?

Because when you're far back, a lot of the sound is coming from the room
and so it's off the major axis of the mike. The small diameter mikes have
much flatter response off-axis.

Also, many of the large diaphragm mikes are specifically intended for an
exaggerated larger-than-life sound, which is very much not a good idea for
classical work.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
news:cpqlp4$5oi$1@panix2.panix.com...
>
> Because when you're far back, a lot of the sound is coming from the room
> and so it's off the major axis of the mike. The small diameter mikes have
> much flatter response off-axis.
>
> Also, many of the large diaphragm mikes are specifically intended for an
> exaggerated larger-than-life sound, which is very much not a good idea for
> classical work.
> --scott

HI Scot

So using two KM184 would be a better way to go for recording voice/guitar
than using a AT4040 in front of Kirsti ( Classical singing wife) . .

If I understand: large diaphragm is better for a pop voice but small
diaphragm mike is better of classical voice and room size doesn't matter?
--
Peace,
Ed Bridge
Brooklyn N.Y.
http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
 
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Edward Bridge <edbridgeNOSPAM@earthlink.net> wrote:
>"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
>So using two KM184 would be a better way to go for recording voice/guitar
>than using a AT4040 in front of Kirsti ( Classical singing wife) . .

Try it and see.

>If I understand: large diaphragm is better for a pop voice but small
>diaphragm mike is better of classical voice and room size doesn't matter?

Not really. I'll often pick a small diaphragm mike on all kinds of pop
voices if I want a natural effect. But most pop stuff you don't want to
be natural.

The room is important no matter WHAT you are doing, but if you are pulling
back to get more distant sound (like you tend to want to do for classical
work), it's more important because there is just more of it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
 
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The KM184's for vocals should be back at least 3 feet and not in the direct
blast path... (a diaphragm tension issue not a size issue).

You may want to hang a wool blanket as a curtain behind the mic's and
another behind the singer to cut out some of the room reflections in your
"shoebox" .....
The absorbent material out in the room is more effective than close to the
wall.

The high notes of classical soprano's and flute players sometimes have more
dynamic range than desired..... a multiband compressor can be useful set to
only compress above the frequency where dynamics become excessive.... if you
can tell it's compressed then it's too much.

A real hall is certainly preferred.....

Rgds:
Eric

www.webermusic.com

>
> HI Scot
>
> So using two KM184 would be a better way to go for recording voice/guitar
> than using a AT4040 in front of Kirsti ( Classical singing wife) . .
>
> If I understand: large diaphragm is better for a pop voice but small
> diaphragm mike is better of classical voice and room size doesn't matter?
> --
> Peace,
> Ed Bridge
> Brooklyn N.Y.
> http://www.bridgeclassicalguitars.com/
>
>
 
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<< > I was wrong, it was Domingo, and maybe more than 10 feet away.
> Tom

<either way, why did Phil use a small da? >>



When I recorded Domingo, I used a distant KM140. Chosen mainly because I have a
lot of them (& had to cover up to six singers moving around on stage) & they're
the most natural mics I have. The more colorful mics went on the orchestra.
Scott Fraser
 
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