The Only Problem with Tivo...

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

> Oh, I agree, the service is worth the money, that's not at issue.
>
> But those who don't need the service, the people who don't care
> for the guide, and therefore for any of the features that juggle
> the guide info (season pass, wishlists, schedule changes, SP
> manager, daily call, suggestions, thumbs ratings...) those people
> are being sent away by tivo, because all they need is a digital
> vcr.

But what if Tivo doesn't *want* that business? It seems to me that Tivo
sees itself as a "services" company. The hardware exists as a platform
to provide their services. They don't want to be in the hardware
commodity business. The profits on commodity products are very small
and engender little to know customer loyalty. How do you know that
they're making the wrong choice, and can't they choose to do that if
they want?

> It could be painfully simple to strip the guide-function sections
> from the tivo software and 'snip out' the places in the program
> that point to them. What's left is what some people want, a tivo
> branded, *truly* stand alone, digital vcr. No regular call-in, no
> required monthly fee. What the hell, yank out the console
> section, turn off the log files, set up every config/text file to
> be encrypted, so that to truly hack it you have to pull the drive
> and start hacking the os and the executables themselves. Go ahead
> and make it non-upgradeable to get service. As long as it's there
> in the manual/box/somewhere legal, then tivo is fine.

But, as noted above, there's a heck of a lot less profit in selling that
type of equipment. The companies that produce that type of equipment
(and there are plenty) are large volume electronics manufacturing
companies (like Sony, Philips, etc) that can get by on razor thin
margins and volume sales. Tivo is nothing like Sony, and doesn't want
to compete with them.

> Remember, stealing service is getting the guide data, and the
> functions that depend on it, for free. If you don't want to pay
> for guide data, or be required to make the regular call-in, then
> you shouldn't have to.

Remember what? Your personal definition as to what stealing service is?
Tivo's definition (the one that we all agreed to in the box or by
signing up for service) defines stealing service much more broadly.
Guess which one holds more legal weight.

> Hell, even the cell companies are going this path, or haven't you
> noticed the pay-as-you-go cell phones in your local convenience
> store? And this is from years of customers getting pissed about
> long term contracts with steep termination fees....

Tivo uses the exact same model, haven't you noticed? I pay for a month
of service, I get a month of service (there's also a lifetime option if
you so choose). If I don't pay, I don't get service. Same goes for
cell phones (except for 911 use which is a federally mandated
requirement and doesn't really apply to Tivo as it's not a safety
issue). To get certain rebates, etc., yes you have to sign up for a
year of service, but their normal contract doesn't require it. Sort of
like cell phone service, no?

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

In article <ai0ub19quqba466vjl4bts97g17en2gu3s@4ax.com>, Jason wrote:

> Theft of service? Nope, don't wanna take any bandwidth, or
> communicate with tivo at all, just pay for the hardware and use
> it's most basic function, to record the time and channel I tell
> it to, no more, and absolutely no regular call.


Why do you want a TiVo when, clearly, what you want is a DVR with no
frills? And why complain when TiVo doesn't give you the bottom-tier
product it so clearly is not?

This really has been beaten to death here. TiVo sells you the hardware
with the expectation that you will subscribe to the service. The
hardware is designed to work with the service. TiVo has no reason to
sell hardware to people who aren't going to use the service, and so
they have no reason to accomodate you. You think they should. They
don't. Round and round we go.

The people who use the service and hardware don't really care about
this.

 

[Jason]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:12:57 -0400, Randy S. wrote:

>> Service is linked to that regular call-in for guide data,
>
>That is one component of service, yes.
>
>> and that is the axis that TiVo's business model turns upon.
>
>Really? Who says? I bet Tivo would disagree.

They wouldn't disagree, it's a true statement.
Let's example this, and start with tivo-basic. You get:hard disk
recording, record from guide, record by time/channel, control
live tv, broadband, 3 days of guide data space. This list is
straight from the tivo website. Because these are the only
features listed for tivo-basic, it's safe to say the rest are
'add-on' features, those not necessary for its most basic
function, that of a digital video recorder.
Of those listed, there are only 2 that, if you remove them, the
box stops:Hard disk recording, and guide data. Obviously, if you
take away disk recording it wouldn't be called a digital recorder
of anything, it would be *unable* to work. So the guide data is
the lever that the rest of it rests upon, the one thing that the
box will *refuse* to work without, and that's the difference. The
box has all capability, but will refuse to function without guide
data. But the source of the guide data is the phone call...

Take away the phone call, and you take away the guide data, and
that's where the box's software refuses to work. Simple as that.

>They are are "leasing"
>you the right to use their software (that's the way the contract reads).
> One component of that is getting the schedule. The features of the
>software are other components. You don't pay your sub, you're not
>entitled to use the software, *any* of it, not just the guide data.

The sony vs universal lawsuit "The Betamax Case" ruled that it
was legal and fair for a person to use a sony vcr to record
things for personal use later. The specific phrase was 'whole
television programs'. It also ruled that the equipment used for
such purposes was also quite legal, that this was a 'fair use' of
the equipment and of the content recorded. Written another way,
it is illegal for a company to interfere in the fair use of a
piece of equipment meant for personal use of this nature. That
old but smart ruling covers the hardware only, you might say,
but...

There are those who say that a piece of software that functions
as an 'off switch' on a piece of sheltered hardware is itself a
violation. What use is the protected hardware if the software now
acts as the mechanism used to govern what that hardware
can/cannot be used to do? Answer: no use at all, and definitely
not fair use.
Tivo has copyright functions, oh yes. It limits what you can do
with what's recorded based on channel. This is of dubious logic,
because anything watched could conceivably fall under the shelter
of protected fair use. But that's too easy to point out, so let's
put it aside.
Now, since the channel tivo thinks is on is not necessarily the
actual channel, the limitation is placed on allowed content.
Anyone who might claim that the tivo acts on it's best knowledge
may be correct, but only by disregarding the manual sections that
talk about channel changing and IR tents. Those sections, by
their presence, tell that the tivo cannot always be positive
which channel is actually on the tv.


>> (( Personally, I like the service. But just because I like path A
>> does not mean I should be forced to go down path A. There should
>> be an option, path B. ))
>
>There's plenty of path B. It's called a non-Tivo DVR. This argument
>seems so silly because there are tons of exactly what you want all
>around. Why does it have to be "Tivo" brand? Without the much-loved
>Tivo features and service, what would it add?
>
>Randy S.

Because I want Tivo to get big. I want them to be the biggest of
the rest of them, by a good margin. As a company they let loose a
bunch of restrictions. They don't bitch and yank websites that
explain how to hack their boxes. They leave 30-second skip
functions active in their code. They created a menu system that,
for the most part, is intuitive. They design the insides of their
boxes to be easily modified. They've got the right setup, the
right outlook of it: Give the people something of quality that
the tinkerers can play with easily. Even if I don't hack my own
box, I want tivo to keep going, because they don't have a problem
should I decide to do that later.

 

[noah]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:12:57 -0400, "Randy S." <Randy@nospam.com>
wrote:

>Again, there are tons of DVR's out there that will do this.

Would you be so kind as to name a few? I'm searching for a simple
digital replacement for a VCR. I don't want a DVD burner included. I
don't want subscription service. I don't want to have to build a
computer with a TV tuner to do the job. I just want to stop using the
tape machine. I can buy a VCR for under $50. Is there a DVR for
under $100 ?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

Noah wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:12:57 -0400, "Randy S." <Randy@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Again, there are tons of DVR's out there that will do this.
>
>
> Would you be so kind as to name a few? I'm searching for a simple
> digital replacement for a VCR. I don't want a DVD burner included. I
> don't want subscription service. I don't want to have to build a
> computer with a TV tuner to do the job. I just want to stop using the
> tape machine. I can buy a VCR for under $50. Is there a DVR for
> under $100 ?
>

That may be a good point, I'm not sure if there are non-DVD integrated
non-Tivo units out there (other than ReplayTV units which use a very
similar business model as Tivo uses). The ones I was thinking of are
DVD integrated as you point out, and they're not typically that cheap.
Take this one for example -

http/www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7006759&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1099392260971


Perhaps others can point out some cheaper options. But I wouldn't bet
on finding one under $100, that's pretty low.

Randy S.

 

[Jason]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 15:22:16 -0400, Randy S. wrote:

>Noah wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 18:12:57 -0400, "Randy S." <Randy@nospam.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Again, there are tons of DVR's out there that will do this.
>>
>>
>> Would you be so kind as to name a few? I'm searching for a simple
>> digital replacement for a VCR. I don't want a DVD burner included. I
>> don't want subscription service. I don't want to have to build a
>> computer with a TV tuner to do the job. I just want to stop using the
>> tape machine. I can buy a VCR for under $50. Is there a DVR for
>> under $100 ?
>>
>
>That may be a good point, I'm not sure if there are non-DVD integrated
>non-Tivo units out there (other than ReplayTV units which use a very
>similar business model as Tivo uses). The ones I was thinking of are
>DVD integrated as you point out, and they're not typically that cheap.
>Take this one for example -
>
>http/www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7006759&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1099392260971
>
>
>Perhaps others can point out some cheaper options. But I wouldn't bet
>on finding one under $100, that's pretty low.
>
>Randy S.

Well, I saw some units on amazon that ranged from that bestbuy
$665 down to about $225, which actually isn't bad. I didn't find
any just-a-hard-drive-inna-box units. To get a stand-alone, no
outside communication, capability at least needs a dvd recorder.
It seems that panasonic and toshiba have a few models of those
out there, and some of them mention editing out the commercials
in what seemed to be on-the-fly mode.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

>>http/www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7006759&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1099392260971
>>
>>
>>Perhaps others can point out some cheaper options. But I wouldn't bet
>>on finding one under $100, that's pretty low.
>>
>>Randy S.
>
>
> Well, I saw some units on amazon that ranged from that bestbuy
> $665 down to about $225, which actually isn't bad. I didn't find
> any just-a-hard-drive-inna-box units. To get a stand-alone, no
> outside communication, capability at least needs a dvd recorder.
> It seems that panasonic and toshiba have a few models of those
> out there, and some of them mention editing out the commercials
> in what seemed to be on-the-fly mode.

Hmm, that seems interesting. Automatic commercial skipping seems like
it would get the MPAA and networks in a tizzy, though!

Randy S.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

(Jason) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> Well, I saw some units on amazon that ranged from that bestbuy
> $665 down to about $225, which actually isn't bad. I didn't find
> any just-a-hard-drive-inna-box units. To get a stand-alone, no
> outside communication, capability at least needs a dvd recorder.

Remember that the DVD recorders with TiVo come with "TiVo Basic", which
allows VCR-like recording with no outside communication. You even get
some TiVo features for free if you connect to the TiVo servers. I see some
online for $300, and that's not bad.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http/www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverTheHedge/VelveetaAndRotel.gif

 

[sinner]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

* Randy S. wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>>>http/www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7006759&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat13900050019&id=1099392260971


>>>Perhaps others can point out some cheaper options. But I wouldn't bet
>>>on finding one under $100, that's pretty low.

>> Well, I saw some units on amazon that ranged from that bestbuy
>> $665 down to about $225, which actually isn't bad. I didn't find
>> any just-a-hard-drive-inna-box units. To get a stand-alone, no
>> outside communication, capability at least needs a dvd recorder.
>> It seems that panasonic and toshiba have a few models of those
>> out there, and some of them mention editing out the commercials
>> in what seemed to be on-the-fly mode.

> Hmm, that seems interesting. Automatic commercial skipping seems like
> it would get the MPAA and networks in a tizzy, though!

It doesnt skip them on initial playback if I am not mistaken. They allow
you to mark the commercials and then move the video off the unit without
the commercials. The pricier DVD recorders with HD's have this feature.

--
David
To live is always desirable.
-- Eleen the Capellan, "Friday's Child", stardate 3498.9

 

[Jason]

Archived from groups: alt.video.ptv.tivo (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:45:01 -0400, Jeff Rife wrote:

> (Jason) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
>> Well, I saw some units on amazon that ranged from that bestbuy
>> $665 down to about $225, which actually isn't bad. I didn't find
>> any just-a-hard-drive-inna-box units. To get a stand-alone, no
>> outside communication, capability at least needs a dvd recorder.
>
>Remember that the DVD recorders with TiVo come with "TiVo Basic", which
>allows VCR-like recording with no outside communication. You even get
>some TiVo features for free if you connect to the TiVo servers. I see some
>online for $300, and that's not bad.

Yeah, I'm aware of that. The ones I saw did not mention tivo at
all, since the person was looking for hard-drive-inna-box
functionality.

 

[youaretwats]

wow, what bunch of twats.

you are all too dumb to understand the goal.

mod the tivo and make it useful without a monthly subscription.

why is that wrong??

it isn't.

just a bunch of virgins that can not code.

and for those that stated that just going out and purchasing a new dvr unit
is the only solution:

not everyone still lives with their mommy's.

most of us have bills and mortgages.

i know you get your asses kicked daily at high school, that is no reason to bash the thinking behind this idea.

 

[amdchuck]

well, you really told them.....too bad this thread has been dormant since 2005....