Epic VP: PS4 is Like a Perfect Gaming PC

[wolley74]

There's nothing that we have to guess about - we know what the processors can do, we know what the CPUs can do

CPU = Processor, why say it twice in a row?

 

[amoralman]

But realistically, if you have a gaming PC there's no need for a PS4. Just wait a month for some hacker to emulate it, shouldn't be too hard, it's basically a mid range to low end PC.

Had no though of it, but this is were always-online DRM kicks in! Depending on the server's calculation for a given game, it could be really hard to emulate. Then again, I doubt most game will be a la D3.

 

[gamoniac]

Folks, PS4 and Xbox Next are dedicated gaming consoles. In 3-4 years, most PCs will again have better hardware than these consoles, but for now (April 2013), most gaming PCs are not as powerful as these consoles -- 6-8 cores, 6-8GB GDDR5 RAM, etc. Keep in mind, your PC might have 16GB of memory, but how many GB of memory does your video card have? And yes, Windows has a 2GB limitations on addressable memory space per program on 32-bit platform.

When hardware on gaming consoles became aged, you complain. Now that they are refreshed, just enjoy the next few years, would you?

 

[roadrunner343]

[citation][nom]spentshells[/nom]Oh your pc has 8 GB of gddr5?[/citation]

You know GDDR5 is based on DDR3, right? 16GB DDR3 + much better GPU (With your beloved GDDR5) + much better process > PS4. Not that hard to figure out.

 

[slomo4sho]

Is there a reason why you keep using this hideous PS4 prototype image even though no official image has been released?

 

[roadrunner343]

much better processor*

And no, Gamoniac, the high end gaming PCs will outperform the PS4 and XBOX Next from launch day, just like they did with the PS3 and XBOX 360. Yes, the next gen consoles will be respectable machines, but in no way will they outperform the mid-high end gaming PC segment.

 

[Guest]

[citation][nom]gamoniac[/nom]Folks, PS4 and Xbox Next are dedicated gaming consoles. In 3-4 years, most PCs will again have better hardware than these consoles, but for now (April 2013), most gaming PCs are not as powerful as these consoles -- 6-8 cores, 6-8GB GDDR5 RAM, etc. Keep in mind, your PC might have 16GB of memory, but how many GB of memory does your video card have? And yes, Windows has a 2GB limitations on addressable memory space per program on 32-bit platform.When hardware on gaming consoles became aged, you complain. Now that they are refreshed, just enjoy the next few years, would you?[/citation]

8GB GDDR5 ram is shared between the whole system and the GPU. So its most likely 1GB for GPU and 7GB for the system. Nowadays gaming GPUs has about 2GB or more and system have 8GB as minimum but most people choose to have 16GB. Lastly most of the people who game use 64 bit Windows for the OS as of the Steam survey.

 

[bluestar2k11]

Far as i know, no gaming PC has GDDR memory as it's primary ram. So for bandwidth the console will likely win for quite some time to come, even if it lacks in processing pixels and shader effects.

Windows 32bit does have that limitation, but it can be expanded to 4Gb if you code it right. My skyrim currently uses 2.5Gb of ram to run with all my mods, and i believe it can go up to 4Gb. But most don't program their games to do so. For skyrim i believe modders did it first as they found quickly that it would eat up to 2gb without issue, and then crash.

I've got high hopes for this generation. Not because i favor consoles, but because the parts the new consoles use will hopefully advance gaming, PC gaming, use modern API features and processing like Dx11 and tessellation, and 64bit progressing and memory address space, and make better ports to and from, which benefits every gamer.

Out of sheer curiosity, won't don't we have PC's using GDDR memory as primary ram? The PS4 is doing it, partly because of the integrated chip, but why couldn't standard desktops do so since most CPU's use a CPU integrated memory controller, and by extension, why couldn't that controller run at the clock of the CPU to fill the processing requires to push/pull that much data?

GDDR5 afaik, completely outperforms DDR3 SDRAM, which much faster clock speeds and much higher bandwidth. But I'm sure it is more expensive. Is it just price? Or is there some reason in the processing itself that doesn't lend well to gaming systems as primary ram?

 

[fulle]

Possibilities:

1) Most likely scenario: 32bit Application was not set to be large address aware:
- limit is 2GB

2) X86 windows with IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE flag:
- 3GB limit

3) 64 bit Windows running X86 application IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE not set
- 2GB limit

4) 64bit Windows running x86 application IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE set
- 4GB limit

5) 64 bit Windows running 64 bit process but IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE is cleared
- 2GB limit

6) 64bit Windows running 64bit process with IMAGE_FILE_LARGE_ADDRESS_AWARE set
- 8 TB limit


Let's be honest here, and just admit that 99% of games out there are running with a 2GB or 4GB memory limit on our fancy gaming PC. And when that's not the case, it's because users hacked the game's setting to fix it.

 

[nokiddingboss]

The Glorious PC Gaming Master Race are a relentless bunch I'd give you that. Still though, all of your whining wont make a bit of difference once the next-gen consoles are out armed with exclusive console games that your $1000 PC's can never every truly touch. You can make the counter argument of PC only games such as RTS and such, but they bought a console knowing that they wont be able to play those games. While you, the elitist, expects to plow through any/every game on the market just because your PC can take the heat. But you can't play everything my hypocrite, self indulgent and arrogant PC brethren because --- boom! Console Exclusives... and boom! 4+ year guaranteed longevity spitting your $700 PC that can barely play games on medium by that time. While console gamers are enjoying games optimized to run in their unit. Its true bro. Can a PC from 2006 run the AAA games of today? Right... What's a perfect gaming PC? One that you can buy today and last for half a decade without being obsolete and cost only $400

 

[ipwn3r456]

[citation][nom]spentshells[/nom]Oh your pc has 8 GB of gddr5?[/citation]

The graphics memory is shared with the RAM... so it does not theoretically have 8GB of GDDR5 memory. Sure I can have 8GB of GDDR5 RAM on my PC too. Even MORE than that. I can build my computer with 64GB of RAM and share 50GB to the graphics memory...

 

[roadrunner343]

This isn't a matter of PC vs Console war. They both have their place and I play both. But to say the PS4 will be more powerful than any PC is just stupid. It may be more cost effective, but it will not perform as well as high end PCs. Yes, high end PCs are more expensive, but that's not the point here.

And the reason GDDR5 is not typically used as system RAM is due to high latency. GDDR5 trades response time for high bandwidth, which is fine for highly parralel applications such as GPUs. It will be interesting to see how it performs as system RAM, but this small detail alone is not going to make the PS4 a Godlike computing machine when compared to a traditional PC. It's a tradeoff, not a breakthrough.

 

[fulle]

[citation][nom]ipwn3r456[/nom]The graphics memory is shared with the RAM... so it does not theoretically have 8GB of GDDR5 memory. Sure I can have 8GB of GDDR5 RAM on my PC too. Even MORE than that. I can build my computer with 64GB of RAM and share 50GB to the graphics memory...[/citation]

Which doesn't really matter, when the game's a 32 bit application limited to 4GB of virtual address space in 64bit Windows.

The PS4 should have a huge positive impact to PC games, since it'll force devs to finally start programming games as 64 bit applications. They simply won't be able to port games as 32bit applications anymore, since a game eating through 8GB of memory on a PS4 would CRASH on a PC if they tried to port it as a 32bit application.

So, YAY! We finally should get 64bit games as a standard!

 

[oj88]

Agreed. Even I am not a gamer, I wish I can use the PS4 as a normal PC. So I won't spend much more time and money to build one.

 

[alextheblue]

[citation][nom]vmem[/nom]actually, most PCs that PC game on DO run 32-bit windows. we may not call them gaming PCs, but they're out there...[/citation]
OK but we're talking about gaming PCs. Not just any old PC that runs casual games. The vast majority of Gaming PCs running serious, non-casual games with heavy RAM requirements are 64-bit. Period. Regular Joe fetch-email book-the-face PCs? Maybe not, but those PCs aren't running games that NEED more than ~2GB of memory. Farmville sure as hell doesn't need that much RAM.

Heck even most of the Steam library doesn't need that much RAM, just the newest most demanding titles. Now, if a game needs 4GB+ of memory, they could just mandate 64-bit. If you want to run that game, and for some reason still don't have a 64-bit OS, you'll have to upgrade and/or dual boot. For example, if you still need WinXP 32-bit for such-and-such ancient software your company runs: dual boot.

So yeah, bullshit.[citation][nom]fulle[/nom]Let's be honest here, and just admit that 99% of games out there are running with a 2GB or 4GB memory limit on our fancy gaming PC. And when that's not the case, it's because users hacked the game's setting to fix it.[/citation]Uh, what's your point? If a game really needs all that RAM, it's up to the developer to build it right, and set proper system requirements. If you aren't foolish you've already future proofed your build by going 64-bit and having adequate RAM, so when such a game comes out that you want to play, you're set. Just because most games don't currently need or take advantage of 4GB+ of memory, doesn't mean we should all still be running 32-bit. After these newer consoles hit, we're going to see a lot more games with more modern RAM requirements.

 

[armitageid]

People do not seam to understand that just because their Windows 64-bit system with 16GB+ of memory in it does not instantly mean that they program they are running is a 64-bit application. Most games run with a 32-bit client and thus, unless specifically coded for and your system is tweaked and runs in a certain mode, they are not going to be able to address more than 2GB of memory. As more and more games are written in pure 64-bit they can begin to tap into that massive reserve of memory you have. For something like the PS4, the hardware is a closed platform. The develop knows EXACTLY what specifications it is working with. This is a HUGE plus for them since they do not have to worry about a million different CPU/GPU configurations. It allows them to tweak and tune the code for the most performance possible. In addition, with the 8GB of shared memory, they are free to leverage 64-bit code and fully utilize all that memory. There is no reason they shouldn't.

Here is a Technet link from Microsoft that details how it Windows uses memory for 32-bit and 64-bit scenarios: http/msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa366778%28v=vs.85%29.aspx#physical_memory_limits_windows_7

 

[palladin9479]

Where lots of people are getting this wrong is that consoles do not have nearly as many layers of abstraction done that modern PC's have. With the creation of Windows 95/98 and later Windows 2000 the code that programs have to executes goes through several different API's, translators and scheduling entities before it's allowed to be executed. This is done to provide the seamless multitasking environment people want along with the ability for games to run on any hardware their API supports. Programs do not have to be coded specifically for that piece of hardware, instead their encoded for an abstracted piece of virtual hardware (DX API) that is then implemented as a driver layer. Consoles do not have to deal with this limitation, the developers know exactly what the code will be executing on and the console's OS does not need to ensure system stability against unknown code.

That's also why consoles are notoriously easy to hack / mod, you only need to find one weakness in the OS implementation to crack it and gain ring 0 root privileges.

For the memory, sorry guys but GDDR5 will beat out DDR3 pretty handily. If you doubt this then go look up bench's for GDDR5 equipped GPU's vs their DDR3 versions, there is no contest. GDDR5 used to be expensive and have significant implementation limitations, there is an actual DIMM standard for using it on a PC, nobody does it (yet) due to the cost and timing issues. Consoles on the other hand are all integrated so they have more room to use those types of technology. Also system memory bandwidth is rarely pressed in actual usage, other bottlenecks tend to pop up first with the big exception being GPU processing.

Something that not many people know or talk about is that in the modern AMD APU designs the GPU and CPU can share the same memory region. Not cutting out a region for the GPU but actually share the same address tables and memory map. That 8GB GDDR5 will simultaneously be used by both CPU and GPU with data being passed between the two of them, the iGPU essentially becomes a large co-processor to the CPU. That is an incredibly big thing.

Essentially we're about to start seeing 64-bit games finally be released. In the next few years the final 32-bit hold outs should be purchasing new PC's to replace their outdated five year old box's. Remember most people tend to use their PC for 4~5 years before replacing it, so those "32-bit OS" he's talking about are older PC's that are loaded with 32-bit Windows XP or Windows Vista. Gamers and enthusiasts have already moved on but much of the general population using older systems has not.

 

[volkov956]

Epic has been in limbo logically since PS3 and X360 Release they are smart in the regard to follow the easy money beside thats usually utter muttered nonsense from them

I would like to hear from they're smaller devs in they're studios would be a fresh bit of air and probally less full of BS unless of course it was still a read off this list responses

 

[pocketdrummer]

[citation][nom]gamoniac[/nom]Folks, PS4 and Xbox Next are dedicated gaming consoles. In 3-4 years, most PCs will again have better hardware than these consoles, but for now (April 2013), most gaming PCs are not as powerful as these consoles -- 6-8 cores, 6-8GB GDDR5 RAM, etc. Keep in mind, your PC might have 16GB of memory, but how many GB of memory does your video card have? And yes, Windows has a 2GB limitations on addressable memory space per program on 32-bit platform.When hardware on gaming consoles became aged, you complain. Now that they are refreshed, just enjoy the next few years, would you?[/citation]

Ummm.... no.

Windows, as he mentioned it (insinuated an all inclusive limitation), can address FAR more than 2gb with a 64-bit operating system. And any mid-range or higher gaming system WILL have the 64-bit version of windows. Unless they just inherit an older gaming system or they are dumber than a rock, they'll have access to at least 4GB.

And the PC market will catch up to whatever wizardry they have in the PS4 within 2 years, not 3-4. And judging by how long they waited to update the Xbox (7 #%&@ing years), it will likely be the better part of a DECADE before they even get close to PCs again.

And you can be assured they'll have zero support for KB/M and will restrict everything you do to paid services. Also keep in mind that your PS4 will only be able to install PS4 apps and games, not the entirety of windows compatible programs. So, it's far from the "perfect gaming PC" and even farther from "the most powerful PC in the world".

They're obviously trying to pull PC gamers into the console market. Sorry, but we aren't that stupid.

 

[alextheblue]

[citation][nom]madjimms[/nom]Does this mean we can possibly install an x86 operating system like Windows or Linux?[/citation]Maybe. They did it with the original Xbox. But the APUs in the PS4 (and next Xbox) are semi-custom, so you wouldn't be able to take full advantage of them for multiple reasons. For one, getting drivers to work properly and completely. Then there's the platform-specific modifications that might never be utilized when running PC software. Things like eDRAM, custom instructions, etc.