Ideal speaker set-up to use with an RX-v577 Receiver

[Cardamom]

Dear All,

I am presently building my house, and am looking for guidance towards the "right" speaker set-up for my eventual stereo needs. We won’t watch so many films inside – mostly, the system is for nice-quality background music. But sometimes, it’s nice to party also, and I'd the the luxury of the best sound possible given my space.

About the indoor space: it's a large common room (combined kitchen/living-room) 19ft x 30ft, with 9'5" ceilings. Floors will be hardwood, walls are plastered bricks, with a considerable amount of sliding glass doors. In most of the space, While I'm unconvinced how desirable they would be,,in-ceiling speakers would be possible in the narrow 6in clearance I'll have above the sheetrock.

So, first off, thanks so much for bearing with my long message and detailed questions. I've been trying to figuring this out myself, but I've never done it before and have lots of doubts. For a start, I don't know how to calculate how much power I'll need for my space, nor how that relates to my receiver's output wattage, nor what impedance has to do with my choices.

As for my present kit: I already have a Yamaha Receiver (RX-V577), and a pair of out-door speakers (Yamaha NS-AW294) for an outdoor "Zone B." I'm writing now, specifically, about speakers for the main (indoor) listening area.

Already, Yamaha's receiver specs are written quite confusingly:

115 W per channel (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9% THD, 1-ch driven)
80 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.09% THD, 2-ch driven)

I suppose the relevant information here is the 2nd line (since I'll be running a pair of wires to each speaker), which means I've only got 80 W per speaker [Please correct me if I'm wrong]. This is actually a bit less than I'd imagined I'd be getting, and I'm worried that I'm now underpowered for the space (over 5000 ft3). Do I worry for nothing?

In any case, since this is the receiver I have for now, do I understand correctly that I can use speakers that are rated for no more than 80W of nominal input, or maximum input (at 8 ohms)? Assuming a separate sub-woofer, how many such speakers would I need for my space? Which makes/models/specs would you suggest? And at 50W/100W (nominal/maximum) input, are the outdoor speakers I've bought appropriate for use with this receiver?

Layout of the space (and possible speaker placement): the front of the room is bound by a 19' wall, made entirely of sliding glass panels. In the corners above these, there is place for two front-channel speakers to hang on the walls. The opposites corners of the room are filled with an L-shaped kitchen, (on one side) and an L-shaped wooden staircase (on the other). If a center (and/or rear-channel) speaker(s) are needed, I could find places for them along that back wall.

There is also space (and power) for a sub-woofer beneath the staircase. While not strictly ideal, the side of the staircase is fully open to the room, so I hope it will still contribute as I'd like. Do you think this could be a viable solution? If so, in light of the rest of my kit, which model would you suggest? Of course, if you think under-stair placement is a recipe for disappointment - please, could you tell me why that's the case? Also - what on earth does down-firing, rear-firing or front-firing have to do with my choice?

Another question: Is there any way that in-ceiling speakers would be a better option? A priori I'd thought not - since people don't have ears on top of their heads. But manufacturers do produce an awful lot of these in-ceiling models, so maybe I'm thinking about this wrong. What are your thoughts?

Thanks so much in advance for any and all advice/suggestions you can make. I really appreciate the help.

(By the way - the system is for installation in Brazil, but to get better quality components at a reasonable price, I'll buy it all in the US. This is cost-effective, but leaves no margin for error, as returns are basically impossible).

 

[ien2222]

...In my excitement about all this, I sent my wife some pics of the speakers I was looking at - and she in turn got very excited about the redwood veneer available on HB-1 MK2 from HSU. I admit to also finding these beautiful, and note they are on sale at the moment for $189 each. Obviously, one should pick speakers primarily with the ears and not with the eyes. But looks are also now a consideration - with a preference for real wood...

Woo! Excitement is good

Ok, I have to ask now, given that your placement isn't ideal at all, which has been said above, would you consider bringing them down and have a more traditional placement up in front of the sofa on stands? I didn't specifically ask why they needed to be up there, I mentioned it'll be problematic, but if they needed to be up there there was probably a good reason for it. After looking at the diagram I figured you just didn't want them there, which is fine and understandable.

I also know that looks can greatly influence the decision too and I'm wondering if that's the case here, expecting to get your standard black box speaker which wouldn't go with the room and deciding to just put them up high in the corners where they kind of disappear. If this is the case, or at least partly the case, then how about something like this:

Ascend Acoustic Sierra-1's in Dark Cherry, Expresso, or even bamboo (I love the looks of those finishes) on something like a pedestal stand such as;
http/www.gwizpro.com/stands/proddetail.php?prod=FCStands
that's stained to compliment the Sierra's?

I think something like the dark cherry Sierra's on a whitewashed poplar or cherry wood pedestal with some easy diy sleeved cables would look amazing.

 

[Cardamom]

would you consider bringing them down and have a more traditional placement up in front of the sofa on stands?

Alas - placement up high really is a matter of necessity. Though we could conceivably put a speaker stand in the right-hand corner (despite it partially inturrupting the view), in the left-hand corner, it would be quite in the way, since that column is precisely where our sliding-glass doors will close/lock. Also, Since we'll need to have some kind of curtains, I expect that speakers on stands would interfere with those too.

So: in the corners (or on the wall) above the doors is the best option we could think of.

 

[ien2222]

Understandable, my first thought was that they'd be in the way of things but I figured I'd ask and make sure about that.

Ok, so on the other site people are basically skipping over the post I made. I wasn't expecting a lot of help given the issues, but a bit more than I got which was to go with the SVS in that position under the stairs. On the other hand, if my choice in speakers were way off, I'd at least be told that much. So I think we'll go with what I've listed.

Since both you and your wife like how the Hsu looks, you should start there. It's a beautiful speaker in the rosenut, has good sensitivity, and is a fairly neutral speaker. It's a good speaker for the price and I've recommended them quite a bit for those with a budget of $200-$300.

At this point I recommend emailing them regarding your setup: sales@hsuresearch.com
They provide good customer service and should give you a good indication whether or not you should use their speaker in that particular placement. You can also ask for their opinion on which sub to get, though they would like a sale, they don't purposefully try to steer people wrong, again they have a good reputation.

 

[Cardamom]

At this point I recommend emailing them regarding your setup/quotemsg]

Funnily enough, I actually just did that last night. As you said - fantastic customer service... I already received the following detailed response:

Unfortunately, due to the packaging and box, the VTF-2 Mk4 is too heavy to qualify for shipping, so the VTF-1 Mk2 is really you only option. To be honest though, I'd be hesitant in recommending any sub
below the VTF-3 Mk5 HP for that room. When looking to subs, you do have to consider the entire area and any openings in that room as the sub will try to pressurize those areas as well. So those openings, though may be irrelevant for sound, will end up affecting how much output you get at your listening position, especially when you get to the deeper bass material. From my experience in setting up different
subs in different rooms, the VTF-1 Mk2 and even the VTF-2 Mk4 will likely begin to struggle trying to pressurize that area, especially since you will not be placing the sub nearfield but under the stairs. If you're crossing over the sub and speakers around 80 Hz or so, front firing and down firing will likely not make much of a difference as bass frequencies tend to move more omnidirectional. I would definitely
recommend a more powerful sub for that room, especially if you're planning to listen to HT material. For the HB-1 Mk2's, they should work fine if you're just trying to cover the first half of the room, but if you're trying to get loud playback levels from the back of the room near the entry hall, that may be more of a challenge. Right now, no sub comes to mind if you're looking for something that is under 70
lbs and can put out suitable output to pressurize that area. Of course each room and personal preference differs so you may be able to get by with a smaller sub like the VTF-2 Mk4, but generally, you will likely need a bigger sub in order to adequately pressurize that room.

It's all getting much more clear now (even if I don't know what "HT material" is...)

For the front speakers: I'll start with a single pair of HB1-Mk2s. If it turns out we need more sound on the far side of the room, I eventually see about adding a second pair on the rear channel (or maybe even a single center-channel speaker?).

For the wall mounts: a pair of Vantage Point BSM-B. [One doubt: will I need to screw into the speaker, or is there mounting points in the HB1-Mk2s to accommodate?]

For the sub: All arrows seem to point at the SVS PB-1000, which is more powerful than the VTF-1 Mk2, but still light enough to get on an airplane. Of course, since the heaviest part of the sub is its housing, I am starting to wonder if I shouldn't seriously consider the earlier suggestion of buying good components for the trip, and assembling them in a home-built housing. Would be quite an adventure - and no doubt, will prolong this thread for quite a while longer! Is that too crazy to think about?

 

[ien2222]

"HT material": Home theater material, specifically what they are talking about would be low frequency effects such as low end rumble in explosions for example, the stuff that shakes your seat. Usually this happens in the under 30-35Hz region and as mention before, once you start hitting under 80-100Hz the size of the room begins to dictate more of what you need vs listening distance. For the size of your room normally I would start off with the VTF-3 MK5 HP for those kinds of sounds.

However, the good thing going for you is that you mostly want to use this for music and except for some very specific types of music most everything else usually doesn't go below 40Hz which is high enough to get away with using a smaller sub to a certain extent. Regardless, given the capabilities of any of the bookshelves I listed you will be far better off using the smaller subs than not having them at all. And it does come down to preference, it may turn out that the PB-1000 is more than enough for your tastes.

Keep in mind that both Hsu's and my responses come from a more critical point of view. We don't know what your experience is and as such what your expectations are, so we play it conservatively and address this more critically. Better to have you cautious but optimistic and be pleasantly (or joyously) surprised than to have you thinking you're getting the best setup ever and being disappointed. Your room and placement has challenges, but they are good speakers and a good sub, especially for the money spent. I'm willing to bet you'll be happy with your setup in the end.

As for building your own sub, not crazy at all though I'd pass you off to diysoundgroup.com (this goes beyond what I can help with). With the monetary restriction that you have for customs, you can build a sub that's more capable if you were to only buy what's necessary in the USA (driver, amp, posts) and then buy the rest where you live (construction materials).

With the HB-1's, you'll be drilling holes into it for mounting and that's something you'll want to contact them about. Maybe you'll get lucky and they could add something like a M4 tree nut to the back for mounting at a minimal cost.

 

[Cardamom]

With the HB-1's, you'll be drilling holes into it for mounting and that's something you'll want to contact them about. Maybe you'll get lucky and they could add something like a M4 tree nut to the back for mounting at a minimal cost.

Alas, no luck on that one. They were super friendly about it, but don't keep any mounting hardware on hand. I've ordered the speakers anyway, and will bring them down on my next trip. Once physically in the space, I can see what sort of mounting hardware is needed... On balance, I suppose it's best to avoid drilling into the housing if one can.

For transporting the sub: to resolve the weight issue on the VTF-2 Mk4 or VTF-3 Mk5 HP, HSU suggested I might be able to remove the driver and transport it separately. Of course, for both these larger subs, I'd still be faced with an over-size problem. Something like the ULS-15 MK2 would resolve that issue - but it (as well as the costs quite a bit more than I'd be permitted to carry [as well as more than I'd been planning to spend]. I'll keep thinking about it.

Anyway - thanks so much for all your advice. It's been super kind of you to have given the time and effort. Once I get everything set up, I'll report back here on what I finally chose and how it all sounds.

 

[ien2222]

No problem at all, hope you like the speakers.

For mounting, drilling into the cabinet for screws won't change the sound any if you were concerned about that. One thing you'll want to do though is use just a little bit of Elmer's school glue, the white all-purpose kind, into the hole. You could use wood glue, but it makes it semi-permanent and you may do a little bit of damage unscrewing it should you need to. But, you'll need to use something to make sure it's air tight otherwise you could get some noise out of it while playing.

Adding something like a M4 tree nut fastener (or whatever size you need, M4 seems to be available the most for smaller speaker mounts) for mounting could be the best way to go. I'm not sure how thick the walls are though, if there are too thin, you'll need to do something else. They are a form of t-nut and are at times labeled as such but an example is:

http/www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-M4-0-7-Zinc-Plated-Steel-T-Nut-3-Piece-per-Bag-803798/204281861

That way you'd simply use a bolt to attach the mount to the speaker, easy on, easy off and it looks like it was meant to be there.

Regardless, if you need use screws or use something like the tree-nut, before doing anything, remove the drivers from the cabinet and see what's going on inside, you don't want to hit anything important. Email Hsu about removing them, they'll be able to give you any special instructions if there is any and even if told where to attach the mount, I'd still open it up. It'd be sad if the drill bit hit a wire and damaged something.

Also (before I forget to mention it again), you mentioned maybe mounting the speaker on it's side. If you are considering it, you'll need to contact them about it. Some horns/waveguides help with horizontal dispersion while limiting vertical dispersion so orientation matters. If this is the case, you can rotate it by 90 degrees but only if the horn is square which I'm not sure of.

As for the sub, hehe, when you mentioned you and your wife liking the rosenut veneer, I immediately thought about the ULS-15 in the rosenut and that's it's too bad it's just over $900.

It can be a slippery slope once you start , first you're thinking about how to get a little bit more into your system, next thing you know you find yourself looking at your house/yard thinking "You know, I could put a dedicated listening/home theater room right there". It's a fun hobby though

 

[Cardamom]

...drilling into the cabinet for screws won't change the sound any....you'd simply use a bolt to attach the mount to the speaker, easy on, easy off and it looks like it was meant to be there....

With this reassurance, and the more I read about it, it seems drilling isn't such a drama after all. And with the Vantage Point BSM-Ms so much smaller than anything else, they may yet work out as the most elegant option for me.
[strike]
Of course, one thing I haven't been able to figure out online is how big these mounts are, relative to the speaker. [Amazon only mentions the size of the box they come in - which isn't helpful]. [/strike]

UPDATE: I did find a dimensional drawing, here: https/www.thinkvp.com/images/elements/9369C0A791B0716F1D88501BECA9D1DB.zip

I've quickly put together a drawing of how I imagine the mount compares in size to the speaker (available here for download): https/www.sendspace.com/file/mxwo7a

The idea would be to install the "teeth" of the T-nut INSIDE the speaker, with just the threaded post accessible from the outside, into which I'd bolt the mount, right? I gather they come with a 6" extension for each mount, so that if I need to get them a bit further off the wall, that's possible.

Have I gotten all this right? If so - I'll already go ahead and order the mounts so I can bring them along with the speakers on this next trip.

It can be a slippery slope once you start...

This is totally true. I fear there's a lot further to fall before I reach the bottom of this rabbit hole. But at least when I get there, I know the sound will be awesome!

 

[ien2222]

Yes, the teeth would be in the inside of the speaker.

As for size, the mount looks like it takes up to 6mm and comes with 6mm bolts and 4mm bolts with washers. I would be inclined to go with smaller tree nuts, and just so you know, you may have to get bolts that are smaller in length and/or with the right thread. Try to find a nut where the post is the same length as the thickness of the cabinet so it's flush with the outside, if it's not possible, get as close as you can. If it were me, I'd go with a little short than too long and have it protruding.

For installing them, I can tell you right now that the mounts do not extend out far enough out but I figured that would be the case. So what you'll need to do is put a block between the mount and the wall...probably at least 6-7cm thick. Make it look nice though, it doesn't need to be just a rectangular block, you can make it larger than the speaker mount and give it a shape, route the edges, etc., whatever you want to do with it.

Anyways, for ease, I would cut a piece of cardboard to the height and width of the speaker and attach the mount to it in the same place as you would with the speakers, adjust for 20 degrees down and around 55 degrees horizontally. Then place it on a counter and see how thick you need to make the block.

That would be installing tweeter up, the other way would be to mount them upside down so the tweeter is on the bottom and the woofer is on the top and this would probably be the preferred method. First it would reduce the thickness of the spacer block but more importantly it would lower the height of the tweeter. However, which way would be best I cannot say for certain, it should be upside down but it's not guaranteed. My advice would be to get a couple of friends/family members to come over and hold them in place and listen for a few minutes each way and see if one way is better over the other and mount accordingly. Make sure you move around the room when listening. If it really doesn't matter that much, then pick whichever way you want to mount them.

To actually attach the mount to the speakers there's a couple of things you'll want to do. First, make sure the size of the drill bit matches the outer diameter of the tree nut, you do not want it larger. Remove the horn/tweeter and if possible the woofer too, use some masking/painters tape to mark the wires t+,t-, w+, w- (and the drivers if need be) so you know where they go back and move the wires out of the way. Now, I don't think the crossover is up there, there shouldn't be enough room with the depth of the tweeter but if it is, you'll have to remove that too if you can. If it's up there and it's glued where you cannot remove it and you can't work around it, you'll need to switch to screws and go that direction.

Otherwise roughly split the top half into thirds and place the hole there. For instance, if you have 12 inches from the top of the rear port to the top wall, make a hole at the 4 and 8 inch mark, adjusting for any bracing that might be in the way and how much room you have on the bracket (make sure you don't go over). Also don't place a hole too close to the rear port. Measure several times, you get one shot at it. Then drill the hole, if you have access to a drill press I'd take advantage of it otherwise use a guide so it's as close to perpendicular as possible.

Now, try the nut both from the inside and outside, almost to the teeth, hopefully it's a tight fit and you need to apply some pressure to get it in. If that's the case then you'll just need to use some wood glue to make a seal between the nut and wood. Swab the inside of the hole with the glue so its the entire surface is coated and then on the inside of the speaker, you'll want to place some around the hole (where the tree contacts the wood). Push the nut in (from the inside) as far as you can.

Then on outside you'll use the bolt to pull the nut as tight as it can. What you'll do is use a large washer (or the mounting bracket) with a piece of cloth with a hole in it or felt washer to protect the wood and tighten it until the tree nut is pulled tight against the wood with no gap. Once you've done that remove the both the bolt and washer/bracket and then thoroughly clean up any excess glue on both sides (especially the outside). When you're done with that reattach the bolt, again with a protective layer and tighten it back up and leave it that way until the glue cures. If the bolt is going to be nearly flush or protruding just a little, you need to stack washers so you get the leverage you need to pull it tight.

If the nut isn't a tight fit, where it's fairly easy to push in and remove, you'll need to use a glue that bonds to metal and wood. You don't want a situation where it's easy to accidentally push the nut out of the hole while mounting/unmounting and end up damaging something inside. Follow the directions, it may ask you to score the nut some with a metal file or some other prep work, then basically it's the same procedure as above.

You can use that glue even if it's a tight fit should you want more security against damage. I mentioned using wood glue if it's tight because the types of glues that bond to metal tend to be viscous and hard to work with, wood glue makes it easier to work with. Your choice. If you do work with this, remember that it bonds to metal, so when cleaning excess glue you absolutely need to make sure that the threads on the bolt and nut are clean. To help safeguard, if it lets you I'd suggest only coating the nut, or if you need to coat both the wood and nut just coat half the hole (the inside half). When cleaning the threads, follow the directions accordingly, just be mindful that it's most likely going to use solvents that will damage the finish of the speaker. The bolt you can clean away from the speaker, but the nut you'll need something like a cotton swab.

As a reminder, when working with the speaker, always do so on something like a cloth sheet to protect it.

Once that is all done put the drivers back in, attach the mounting hardware to the wall and speaker and then connect to two as instructed. A couple of review that I saw said that it's hard to get a tight enough fit to keep it from dropping down. If that happens, the suggestion was to use a file and rough up the contact surfaces at the joint a little. Also, again I'd use a protective barrier between the mount and speaker to protect the finish from any damage. I'd also probably add just a tiny bit of the all-purpose white glue (school/art and crafts) to the threads and make sure there's a seal there too.

 

[Cardamom]

Thanks for these fantastically detailed instructions. All seems pretty clear now.

I'll order the stuff now and report back in a few months once everything is set up.