Those new Bose PA speakers

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> They'd then have to change the firmware inside the DSP processor, since
there
> is stuff in there that compensates for the driver characteristics.



Myer for example, uses proprietary processing; they can be expensive too.
My personal feeling is that Bose could learn a great deal about design and
performance from Myer and Myer could have learned a lot about marketing from
Bose.


Skearl

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bottom line is, how does it sound to the customers? Secondary is how
does it sound to the musician, though sounding like it does to the
audience makes the musicians more confident and results in them
sounding better. The biggest problem I have experienced is VOCALS. It
is hard to understand the words to the song. Vocals need the most
attention. Sometimes they do it. I attended a Joni Mitchell concert at
Red Rocks (Denver) and I was astounded how well I could hear her
voice! God what what voice, and what a performance. I have attended
other concerts there and it wasn't nearly as clear. Of course it might
depend on where I was sitting. For Joni I was on the left edge, about
1/2 way up.

I was listening to someone play where I have played, small club, and I
could not figure out many of the words to his songs. They were songs I
had never heard before (his original material). He was kissing the
mic. It was the mix, the PA, and to some extent, his voice. His
acoustic electric Taylor came through just fine. Get me VOCALS,
VOCALS, vocals.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Kurt Albershardt wrote:

> JoVee wrote:

> >> it's basically a 250w amp driving a 6' tall line array
> >> ...
> >> 24 3" drivers in a tall column driven by 250 watts

> > CORRECTION:
> > I may be in error here...
> > I think it might have a 250w amp for
> > --each 1/2 of the pole--
> > I seem to remember there are 3 amps in the base:
> > 2 for the pole and one for the woof

> Times how many band members? That could add up to a pretty hefty AC draw...

The Devil is in the Details and the Details are in the Circuit Breakers.

"Thanks, folks; we'll be back in just a minute..."

--
ha

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:

> Bottom line, its darn hard to move a decent amount of air with drivers this
> size, even if there are lots of them.

So is this an anorexic Sweet Sixteen?

--
ha

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1giosb4.lyynk01h3u5moN%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

> > Times how many band members? That could add up to a pretty hefty AC draw...
>
> The Devil is in the Details and the Details are in the Circuit Breakers.

As has been said a few times before, this isn't an appropriate system
for a band. I recall when the discussion went around about them
several months back, somoene reported a real trainwreck demo with a
three or four piece famous guys country band in Austin, maybe at the
SXSW festival. But the problem there wasn't AC power, I think it was
drums overpowering speakers or something pretty easy to guess.




--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Y'know Bose doesn't publish specs on it's products.

No freq response curves.

No efficiency data.

No polar plots.

See if you can come up with performance specs on Bose stuff, actually
published by Bose. Call 'em up on the phone and see what kind of 'response'
you get from Bose then. Heh heh...

If you were a contractor, would you install speakers with no published
specs? If you were a sound contractor doing live sound, would you use
drivers/cabinets with no published specs for a paying-high dollar show?
How you gonna plot or plan coverage patterns? Hmmm... Guess you'd have to
go to work for Bose and spend some time and bucks to do the tests
yourself...

Myer has likely lost some commercial business for the same reason, though
they do publish specs, they did not publish them on some models.


Skler

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

in article cft0po$cfa$1@panix2.panix.com, Scott Dorsey at kludge@panix.com
wrote on 8/17/04 9:22 AM:

> JoVee <ten.nozirev@dlywsinhoj.com> wrote:
(SNIP)
>> the appropriate lo-end support from a second box/amp) and again, there's the
>> SPECTRAL DISPERSION issue... the BASS is EVERYWHERE) especially that damned
>> 200-300 box/room hump) whilst most horns Don't Do That well. I'd rather have
>> a set of those old Macintosh tower-O-Tweeters systems in theses venues.
>
> Sounds like what you want is a set of the Tannoy v12 speakers.
> --scott

I've NEVER kicked a Tannpoy out of bed, well not the concentrics anyway...
what's the V12?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

JoVee <ten.nozirev@dlywsinhoj.com> wrote:
>in article cft0po$cfa$1@panix2.panix.com, Scott Dorsey at kludge@panix.com
>wrote on 8/17/04 9:22 AM:
>
>> JoVee <ten.nozirev@dlywsinhoj.com> wrote:
>(SNIP)
>>> the appropriate lo-end support from a second box/amp) and again, there's the
>>> SPECTRAL DISPERSION issue... the BASS is EVERYWHERE) especially that damned
>>> 200-300 box/room hump) whilst most horns Don't Do That well. I'd rather have
>>> a set of those old Macintosh tower-O-Tweeters systems in theses venues.
>>
>> Sounds like what you want is a set of the Tannoy v12 speakers.
>
>I've NEVER kicked a Tannpoy out of bed, well not the concentrics anyway...
>what's the V12?

Big concentric 12" PA speaker. They used to make two different models,
one for the installed market and one for the portable market, but they
rolled them both into the V12, which is easily flown but also can just
be used on sticks. Very natural vocal reproduction.

They also have a 15" system that uses a magic processing box, but I do
not think it sounds as natural as the 12".

It's a little more boxy-sounding than the Tannoy studio monitors, but
it's also higher output.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

George wrote:
>
> one large facility speaker that really works and is
> simple to instal is the R series from community
> that stuff SLAMS

Glancing at the website, I see SON OF LEVIATHAN

 

[george]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

> >population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
> >same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.
>
> Yes, because they buy into the marketing. And the marketing is excellent.
> --scott

Even as a sales professional, and a degree in marketing the Bose demo at
a Bose outlet store blew me away . It does everything except sign the
charge slip
Great presentation, if you ever wanted to experiance a first rate sell
find a bose outlet and take 20 minutes to see the demo
George

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

George wrote:

>>>population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
>>>same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.
>>
>>Yes, because they buy into the marketing. And the marketing is excellent.
>>--scott
>
>
> Even as a sales professional, and a degree in marketing the Bose demo at
> a Bose outlet store blew me away . It does everything except sign the
> charge slip
> Great presentation, if you ever wanted to experiance a first rate sell
> find a bose outlet and take 20 minutes to see the demo
> George


I went to K-Mart (GC) and checked them out several months ago. They
sounded OK in the store. But it was funny: they have a big sign
velcroed to the back of the stick, sort of a large cardboard flag, that
caused a horrible midrange flangey effect. I asked him to remove it and
it smoothed right out.

 

[george]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <cg3bmb$jam$1@woodrow.ucdavis.edu>,
so what <sowhat@nospam.edu> wrote:

> George wrote:
>
> >>>population that somehow equates Bose with quality. I believe that those
> >>>same people consider that to be some sort of high fidelity.
> >>
> >>Yes, because they buy into the marketing. And the marketing is excellent.
> >>--scott
> >
> >
> > Even as a sales professional, and a degree in marketing the Bose demo at
> > a Bose outlet store blew me away . It does everything except sign the
> > charge slip
> > Great presentation, if you ever wanted to experiance a first rate sell
> > find a bose outlet and take 20 minutes to see the demo
> > George
>
>
> I went to K-Mart (GC) and checked them out several months ago. They
> sounded OK in the store. But it was funny: they have a big sign
> velcroed to the back of the stick, sort of a large cardboard flag, that
> caused a horrible midrange flangey effect. I asked him to remove it and
> it smoothed right out.
>
>

I am talking about a Bose factory outlet store run by bose employees ,
schooled in the Gospel from the Mountain(in framingham)
gorge

 

[george]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <2ol5f2Fca9o3U1@uni-berlin.de>,
Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:

> George wrote:
> >
> > one large facility speaker that really works and is
> > simple to instal is the R series from community
> > that stuff SLAMS
>
> Glancing at the website, I see SON OF LEVIATHAN
>
>

kinda like the pocket sized version.LOL
G

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Particle Salad wrote:

[bose stick thingies]

> Anyway, the question.... it seems like it wouldn't be difficult
> at all to roll your own similar system.

I wonder.

> It seems to me there are a few of things
> going on here that make the system work:

1) The DSP and its programming.

2) Line array acoustics.

3) Probable reduction in cabinet resonances and flexing due to
relatively small size of cabinets.

> - smaller diameter drivers in the mains so no low mid
> muddiness buildup (the usual bose lack of lower mids)

Explanation is a few miles short of any acoustic merit. Low midrange
problems with large (15" or 12") bass loudspeakers are generally caused
by:

a) improper eq or none at all of unit in x-over

b) lack of internal reflection damping in cabinet

c) cabinet wall flexing and resonance

> - wide dispersion of audio from drivers to make monitors
> unnecessary

Comes for free with all versions of "the Dead Concept", this is a
variation thereof.

> - some sort of feedback reduction in each unit

Dunno, if so, covered by "DSP and its programming" above.

> - omnidirectional nature of bass frequencies

Please stop assuming that it is omnidirectional because it is bass.
Omnidirectionality depends on the relationship between wavelength of
produced sound and cabinet or array front dimensions. This is what
causes the baffle diffraction step frequency response anomaly that all
loudspeaker and loudspeaker stack designs have to consider. See also the
wings on the old cinema horns ... they were there for a very good
reason.

> Thoughts? Has anyone thought of doing their own similar
> system, using some aspects of the Bose system and improving
> on them?

No.

> Is there more voodoo going on then I'm aware of?

I haven't heard it, I can't fairly comment. It appears to be a high tech
approach rather than a simplistic one. Both strategies have each their
own set of merits and "issues".

If you want to obtain similar functionality then selecting a simplistic
low tech route must come to mind, SLS is one of the brands that offer
"something 8 inch", there are other small boxes on the market from other
companies, using a prefab small box is probably simplest.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

--
*******************************************
* My site is at: http/www.muyiovatki.dk *
*******************************************

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...

Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <7350cf5e.0409131049.21458d8e@posting.google.com>,
billhw13 <bill.lagreca@verizon.net> wrote:
>I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
>experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
>opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
>system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
>any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
>all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...
>
>Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
>tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?

Yes. Poor gain before feedback, and total inability to deal with high
backline levels. For acoustic musicians, these may not be problems at all.

Ask your local music store to let you check one out for a day or two and
try it on a gig in an actual room. If it works well for you, buy it. If
it doesn't, don't.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Yes. Poor gain before feedback, and total inability to deal with high
> backline levels.

What's a high backline level?


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein

 

[george]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <7350cf5e.0409131049.21458d8e@posting.google.com>,
bill.lagreca@verizon.net (billhw13) wrote:

> I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
> experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
> opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
> system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
> any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
> all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...
>
> Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
> tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?

yes but they were outlined in the thread and you seem happy to work
around them
you may be the type of act/musician that this bose product is right for
George

 

[Rupert]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

George <g.p.gleason@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<g.p.gleason-99297A.14521713092004@netnews.worldnet.att.net>...
> In article <7350cf5e.0409131049.21458d8e@posting.google.com>,
> bill.lagreca@verizon.net (billhw13) wrote:
>
> > I was looking through this thread, trying to understand peoples
> > experiences and opinions on this system. As a musician, I had an
> > opportunity to demo this unit with a full band running through 1
> > system, and I was really impressed. the sound was clearly better than
> > any PA we've used, and there were no issues with vocal monitors at
> > all. I'm thinkig of replacing my current PA with 2 of these...
> >
> > Now, as a practical user, who doesn't care about brand names or minor
> > tweak issues, is there really any downside to these systems?
>
> yes but they were outlined in the thread and you seem happy to work
> around them
> you may be the type of act/musician that this bose product is right for
> George

I don't know. I heard these for the first time at a small outdoor art
fair in Culver City, CA. I was hanging out at the first booth from the
"stage" (musicians on the ground with a canopy to keep the sun off).
The upright bassist had one PAS just for himself with a plain ol' SM58
running into it with a sub. This was a very light 4 piece jazz
ensemble. The bassist was by no mean cranking. Yet, the drivers on the
sub were going full tilt, and were bottoming out quite a bit. Now keep
in mind, the was an SM58 a foot off the instrument, and we're not
talking about a mic that can register a lot of bottom. Yet the PAS sub
was not able to handle it at pretty mellow levels. I was highly
unimpressed. The upper end definition was ok, but not exceptional. I'm
sure indoors, the sub would have been more effective. But what kind of
versatility is that?? The keyboard player using a single SRM-450
sounded great, and had the capability for a lot more output if needed.

Rupert

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.audio.pro.live-sound,rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Bob Cain <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> Yes. Poor gain before feedback, and total inability to deal with high
>> backline levels.
>
>What's a high backline level?

A stack of Marshalls all running at eleven.
--scott

Note that many bands' backline amps produce levels exceeding OSHA standards
for industrial facilities. Yet this is considered normal working conditions
for musicians. That's showbiz.
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."