Alesis HD24 question

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Looking at replacing/augmenting a 24-track ADAT setup with an Alesis
HD24 in the very near future. I went through the online PDF manual but
it left me with a question; maybe someone here has some experience with
this setup that can enlighten me.

They go into lots of detail in the manual on transferring files over
ethernet, but note that the ethernet connection can be slower than
transferring over lightpipe; however they don't say much about
transferring via lightpipe other than diagrams showing how to connect it.

We've got an ADAT PCR card in the machine now, to interface with the
ADATs and dump tracks via ADAT Connect, but Connect only handles up to
eight tracks at a time. I notice from the manual that the HD24 also
apparently divides lightpipe I/O into three groups of eight.

Does this mean I'm still limited to transferring tracks eight tracks at
a time using the same old Connect software, if I elect to use optical
transfer? Is it still a realtime dump, as with tapes?

I know there's a firewire option available for the HD24, but that's a
relatively hefty extra cost, in addition to needing to add a firewire
card to the PC ($25 for a PCI firewire card, $300+ for the HD24 adapter,
pffft).

Ah, one other question: anyone know if Alesis plans to update drivers
for the PCR to something a little more modern than Windows 98? Or is
there any other option for syncing the ADATs/HD24 with something like
Logic or Cubase that'll work with a newer platform? Will the HD24 sync
to MMC via the MIDI ports, maybe?

 

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Matt Ion wrote:

> Looking at replacing/augmenting a 24-track ADAT setup with an Alesis
> HD24 in the very near future. I went through the online PDF manual
but
> it left me with a question; maybe someone here has some experience
with
> this setup that can enlighten me.
>
> They go into lots of detail in the manual on transferring files over
> ethernet, but note that the ethernet connection can be slower than
> transferring over lightpipe; however they don't say much about
> transferring via lightpipe other than diagrams showing how to connect
it.
>
> We've got an ADAT PCR card in the machine now, to interface with the
> ADATs and dump tracks via ADAT Connect, but Connect only handles up
to
> eight tracks at a time. I notice from the manual that the HD24 also
> apparently divides lightpipe I/O into three groups of eight.
>
> Does this mean I'm still limited to transferring tracks eight tracks
at
> a time using the same old Connect software, if I elect to use optical

> transfer? Is it still a realtime dump, as with tapes?
>
> I know there's a firewire option available for the HD24, but that's a

> relatively hefty extra cost, in addition to needing to add a firewire

> card to the PC ($25 for a PCI firewire card, $300+ for the HD24
adapter,
> pffft).
>
> Ah, one other question: anyone know if Alesis plans to update drivers

> for the PCR to something a little more modern than Windows 98? Or is

> there any other option for syncing the ADATs/HD24 with something like

> Logic or Cubase that'll work with a newer platform? Will the HD24
sync
> to MMC via the MIDI ports, maybe?

The PCR card suffered from lack of development and updates.

The Frontier Dakota will do 16 tracks at a time,
24 with the add-on Montana.
RME cards are very well regarded, the HDSP 9652
handles 24 tracks, the Digi9636 does 16 and can be
upgraded to 24.
You are still limited to real time transfers.

http/cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41477&item=7312784751&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

The Fireport seems like the popular way to go, very fast.

rd

 

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"Matt Ion" wrote ...
> They go into lots of detail in the manual on transferring
> files over ethernet, but note that the ethernet connection
> can be slower than transferring over lightpipe; however
> they don't say much about transferring via lightpipe other
> than diagrams showing how to connect it.

At 10MB, the built-in ethernet port is absurdly slow and out
of date. However it is still faster than grabbing the data in real-
time via the lightpipe. At least in my experience.

> We've got an ADAT PCR card in the machine now, to
> interface with the ADATs and dump tracks via ADAT
> Connect, but Connect only handles up to eight tracks at
> a time. I notice from the manual that the HD24 also
> apparently divides lightpipe I/O into three groups of eight.
>
> Does this mean I'm still limited to transferring tracks eight
> tracks at a time using the same old Connect software, if I
> elect to use optical transfer?

Yes, unless you can come up with some way to capture all 24
tracks via the three parallel Alesis lightpipes.

Is it still a realtime dump, as with tapes?

Yes, it is a realtime dump, as with tapes.

>
> I know there's a firewire option available for the HD24,
> but that's a relatively hefty extra cost, in addition to needing
> to add a firewire card to the PC ($25 for a PCI firewire card,
> $300+ for the HD24 adapter, pffft).

They sell a "Fireport 1394" which appears to be a conventional
drive-bay to firewire adaptor hardware bundled with their
proprietary software. It is orders of magnitude faster than
the 10MB ethernet or the real-time lightpipe(s).

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

I've owned an HD-24 for several years now. I have made many a transfer
with the ethernet connection and yes, it is relatively slow. I believe
the firewire connector is $200.00 not $300.00 and it works well but is
meant to transfer files to computer and does not talk to the older
ADATs. I have borrowed the firewire hardware from a friend and it does
kick butt for transfers.

I use Cubase and and have sync'd it successfully to my HD-24 regularly.
Here's how it works:

The HD-24 will act only as a master in sending MTC (not MMC) and will
not slave to another component. You will need a midi interface going
into the computer via USB, firewire or PCMCIA. When you copy from ADAT
tapes, the locate numbers must match which involves resetting the
HD-24 to the locate numbers on the tape. It does have some
capabilities using SYMPTE and ADAT sync but I have not used those. Some
of the MOTU interfaces feature ADAT sync as part of their feature set.
My M-Audio FW-410 does not. Tech support at Alesis is fairly easy to
reach by phone and very helpful by today's horrible tech support
standards.

Once I bought my HD-24, I literally stopped using my ADATs and have not
even powered them up for 3 years. The HD-24 is so much easier to use
and has a much better feature set. It has been valuable, however, to be
able to transfer files into the computer and utilize plug-ins and
advanced editing. The HD-24 works in two modes, record and edit. You
can copy, cut, paste, move and do a number of other edits onboard the
HD-24 in edit mode, but when you are in record mode, it does not have
an "undo" function like the Protools, DP, Cubase DAWs do. It operates
more like a tape machine while in record.

I have done several independant CD's and many demo's using the HD-24.
It is dependable and almost completely crash-proof by my experience
which has not been true of my DAW experience. Buying cheap IDE media at
Costco or Office Max (check with tech support or other users of HD-24s
for IDE brand recommendations) has been a Godsend.

I just completed recording a series of rehearsals featuring Jim and Dan
Seals, a new collaboration of brothers who each had major recording
groups of their own at one time. We went from song to song to song and
recorded about 50 songs @ 24-track on a 40gig HD for about $65 then
popped the HD out for a new project. Portability of the HD-24 is also a
great advantage. You are welcome to contact me directly if you have any
other questions.

peakester@earthlink.net
http/home.earthlink.net/~peakester

 

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Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> writes:

>I know there's a firewire option available for the HD24, but that's a
>relatively hefty extra cost, in addition to needing to add a firewire
>card to the PC ($25 for a PCI firewire card, $300+ for the HD24 adapter,
>pffft).

There was a promotion running not long ago where the HD24XR (version with
94/24 converters, supposedly also better than the plain HD24 even at 48 &
44.1) included the Fireport for FREE. I missed that one, but the Fireport
was only US$199 when I bought it. It paid for itself rather quickly in
terms of how easily data was moved on and off the computer, and in doing
drive housekeeping with the PC rather than the HD24XR. Yes, you'll pay
more for the XR, but many report that the sonic improvement is worth it.
As an old 2" analog guy, I've been quite pleased with the
price/performance of the XR version.

How old is your computer? Many that are out in the past 12-24 months have
firewire support on the motherboard. Double check; maybe you already have
it (look for one of those half-hidden little connectors labeled with an
inscrutable icon).

Frank
Mobile Audio
--
.

 

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peakester@earthlink.net wrote:
> I've owned an HD-24 for several years now. I have made many a transfer
> with the ethernet connection and yes, it is relatively slow. I believe
> the firewire connector is $200.00 not $300.00 and it works well but is
> meant to transfer files to computer and does not talk to the older
> ADATs. I have borrowed the firewire hardware from a friend and it does
> kick butt for transfers.

That's CDN$300... exchange rate is a bitch. My friend who actually owns
all the gear is the one who told me this price anyway, it may have
dropped since then.

> Once I bought my HD-24, I literally stopped using my ADATs and have not
> even powered them up for 3 years. The HD-24 is so much easier to use
> and has a much better feature set.

Since we only have a 24-channel board right now, I expect we'd be
keeping the ADATs around just long enough to transfer stuff off the old
tapes onto the HD24 anyway.

> I have done several independant CD's and many demo's using the HD-24.
> It is dependable and almost completely crash-proof by my experience
> which has not been true of my DAW experience. Buying cheap IDE media at
> Costco or Office Max (check with tech support or other users of HD-24s
> for IDE brand recommendations) has been a Godsend.

I get even better prices at a local hole-in-the-wall retailer... big
drives can be had at less than a buck a gig. They don't have anything
slower than a 7200rpm, ATA-100 with 2MB cache, and looking at their
"Specials" page right now, an 80GB Hitachi drive with those specs can be
had on sale for CDN$65, or an ATA-133 8MB/120GB Seagate Barracuda for
CDN$105. 300GB drives are listed around CDN$250 and 400GB drives now
start at about CDN$400.

> I just completed recording a series of rehearsals featuring Jim and Dan
> Seals, a new collaboration of brothers who each had major recording
> groups of their own at one time. We went from song to song to song and
> recorded about 50 songs @ 24-track on a 40gig HD for about $65 then
> popped the HD out for a new project. Portability of the HD-24 is also a
> great advantage. You are welcome to contact me directly if you have any
> other questions.

Thanks for the info, you've been most helpful

 

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In article <4x_3e.892689$8l.527361@pd7tw1no> soundy@moltenimage.com writes:

> They go into lots of detail in the manual on transferring files over
> ethernet, but note that the ethernet connection can be slower than
> transferring over lightpipe; however they don't say much about
> transferring via lightpipe other than diagrams showing how to connect it.

When using the "lightpipe" method, you aren't transferring files,
you're transferring digital audio, and a new file or files is created
on the computer end. It's strictly real time - play on the ADAT,
record on the computer. If you have 24 channels of lightpipe interface
on your computer, you can do it all in one pass. If you have 8 chanels
of lightpipe interface, it takes three passes, or three times real
time, plus whatever time it takes to line up the groups of tracks.

> We've got an ADAT PCR card in the machine now, to interface with the
> ADATs and dump tracks via ADAT Connect, but Connect only handles up to
> eight tracks at a time. I notice from the manual that the HD24 also
> apparently divides lightpipe I/O into three groups of eight.

It's an 8-channel format, so there are three pairs (input and output)
of optical connectors on the HD24.

> Does this mean I'm still limited to transferring tracks eight tracks at
> a time using the same old Connect software, if I elect to use optical
> transfer? Is it still a realtime dump, as with tapes?

Yes.

> I know there's a firewire option available for the HD24, but that's a
> relatively hefty extra cost, in addition to needing to add a firewire
> card to the PC ($25 for a PCI firewire card, $300+ for the HD24 adapter,
> pffft).

I thought that they were giving away the Firewire dock for free these
days. That may have been a limited time offer and you missed it, but
you might find that it's still available. $25 to add this capability
to your computer is well worth while.

> Ah, one other question: anyone know if Alesis plans to update drivers
> for the PCR to something a little more modern than Windows 98?

Unlikely. I don't think they've sold that card for years.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> In article <4x_3e.892689$8l.527361@pd7tw1no> soundy@moltenimage.com writes:
>
>
>>They go into lots of detail in the manual on transferring files over
>>ethernet, but note that the ethernet connection can be slower than
>>transferring over lightpipe; however they don't say much about
>>transferring via lightpipe other than diagrams showing how to connect it.
>
>
> When using the "lightpipe" method, you aren't transferring files,
> you're transferring digital audio, and a new file or files is created
> on the computer end. It's strictly real time - play on the ADAT,
> record on the computer. If you have 24 channels of lightpipe interface
> on your computer, you can do it all in one pass. If you have 8 chanels
> of lightpipe interface, it takes three passes, or three times real
> time, plus whatever time it takes to line up the groups of tracks.

Of course, when you put it that way, it all makes perfect sense and I
wonder why I didn't think of that myself instead of posing what for me
seems like a stupid question...

Thanks, Mike.

>>I know there's a firewire option available for the HD24, but that's a
>>relatively hefty extra cost, in addition to needing to add a firewire
>>card to the PC ($25 for a PCI firewire card, $300+ for the HD24 adapter,
>>pffft).
>
>
> I thought that they were giving away the Firewire dock for free these
> days. That may have been a limited time offer and you missed it, but
> you might find that it's still available. $25 to add this capability
> to your computer is well worth while.

Yeah, the thing that gets me is the fact that the interface for the deck
is so much compared to $25 for a simple PCI card.

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> When using the "lightpipe" method, you aren't transferring files,
> you're transferring digital audio, and a new file or files is created
> on the computer end. It's strictly real time - play on the ADAT,
> record on the computer. If you have 24 channels of lightpipe interface
> on your computer, you can do it all in one pass. If you have 8 chanels
> of lightpipe interface, it takes three passes, or three times real
> time, plus whatever time it takes to line up the groups of tracks.

I'm wondering if one could pull the HD from an HD24, hook it to one of
the Wiebetech Firewire DriveDock thingies, and mount the drive on a
computer? Or would Alesis' propirietary file format bite one?

--
ha

 

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walkinay@thegrid.net (hank alrich) wrote in message news:<1gui7cn.1ym03hn1u7hhvkN%walkinay@thegrid.net>...

> I'm wondering if one could pull the HD from an HD24, hook it to one of
> the Wiebetech Firewire DriveDock thingies, and mount the drive on a
> computer? Or would Alesis' propirietary file format bite one?

Nope, no dice I'm afraid, thats the problem with the propirietary file
format. What would be sweet (although no idea how on earth they would
implement this!) is if Alesis wrote a plug-in to allow Windows (or OSX
) to see the drive if it was mounted...ALTHOUGH, I think its a
better idea copying the data anyway, imagine damaging your hard drive
whilst trying to get it into a firewire cradle!!! "Sorry guys, was a
good 3 months but we'll have to do it all again!" Even if you're
not going to be editing on your PC, still a good idea to copy
everything to the PC religously!! I think I have more faith in tape
than IDE hard drives!!

 

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In article <1gui7cn.1ym03hn1u7hhvkN%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

> I'm wondering if one could pull the HD from an HD24, hook it to one of
> the Wiebetech Firewire DriveDock thingies, and mount the drive on a
> computer? Or would Alesis' propirietary file format bite one?

Nope, part of what's in the Alesis Firewire dock is firmware (I guess)
to talk to the disk drive and pass the data on to the computer in
"normal" format.

You got me interested in that Wiebetech thing for a few minutes, but
like with most out-of-the-mainstream computer stuff, I could only find
on-line sources for it. I wanna see it at a store and there's no place
around here who has it. I can get plenty of Firewire external drives
in cases, but the concept of a caseless external drive seems too
strange for people who work in what passes for computer stores now.
(we don't have Fry's here)


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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"Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:znr1112699042k@trad...
>
> In article <1gui7cn.1ym03hn1u7hhvkN%walkinay@thegrid.net>
> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:
>
>> I'm wondering if one could pull the HD from an HD24, hook it to one of
>> the Wiebetech Firewire DriveDock thingies, and mount the drive on a
>> computer? Or would Alesis' propirietary file format bite one?
>
> Nope, part of what's in the Alesis Firewire dock is firmware (I guess)
> to talk to the disk drive and pass the data on to the computer in
> "normal" format.

Mike, if you're talking about the Alesis Fireport, that's not true.
Hardware-wise it's just a IDE-to-Firewire adaptor that accepts the same
drive caddies as the HD24. It comes with software to run on the computer
that can read the proprietary file format. The software can read any
Alesis-formatted disk connected via Firewire.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> You got me interested in that Wiebetech thing for a few minutes, but
> like with most out-of-the-mainstream computer stuff, I could only find
> on-line sources for it. I wanna see it at a store and there's no place
> around here who has it. I can get plenty of Firewire external drives
> in cases, but the concept of a caseless external drive seems too
> strange for people who work in what passes for computer stores now.
> (we don't have Fry's here)

I bought mine from Smalldog Electronics, up in VT. Given the miniscule
size of that part of the country, how hard could it be to road trip? <g>

One heads-up: it is important to make sure one is aligning the dock's
connector accurately with that of the drive. One can misalign that and
make a mess of something, oh, say, like pushing a drive's pin back into
the connector shell... In which case I highly recommend a roach clip...
errr... a hemostat, yeah, that's the ticket, to pull the pin back out
where it ought to be, and then carefully reconnect the drive.

The FW Drivedock is really quite handy. I'm sold on the concept, now
that I've the training wheels stage.

--
ha

 

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In article <t4z4e.14$2J5.527@news.abs.net> laurent@charm.net writes:

> > Nope, part of what's in the Alesis Firewire dock is firmware (I guess)
> > to talk to the disk drive and pass the data on to the computer in
> > "normal" format.
>
> Mike, if you're talking about the Alesis Fireport, that's not true.
> Hardware-wise it's just a IDE-to-Firewire adaptor that accepts the same
> drive caddies as the HD24. It comes with software to run on the computer
> that can read the proprietary file format.


AH, OK, so software, not firmware. At least that makes the Fireport a
little more useful. You could, I suppose, use it without the Alesis
software to interface a standard FAT16 or FAT32 disk to a computer
with a Firewire port?


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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In article <1gujl23.1a7b8rc14bnn9xN%walkinay@thegrid.net> walkinay@thegrid.net writes:

> I bought mine from Smalldog Electronics, up in VT. Given the miniscule
> size of that part of the country, how hard could it be to road trip? <g>

Oh, Vermont's about 550 miles. Does Smalldog Electronics have a door?
And a shelf? Or is it someone with a house, a small dog to guard the
storage shed, and a PO box? Honestly, I'm not suspicious of buying
on-line, I just want to know what it is that I'm getting and whether I
really want it.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me here: double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

 

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hank alrich wrote:
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
> > walkinay writes:
>
> > > I bought mine from Smalldog Electronics, up in VT. Given the
miniscule
> > > size of that part of the country, how hard could it be to road
trip? <g>
>
> > Oh, Vermont's about 550 miles. Does Smalldog Electronics have a
door?
>
> I believe so.
>
> http/www.smalldog.com
>
> > And a shelf? Or is it someone with a house, a small dog to guard
the
> > storage shed, and a PO box? Honestly, I'm not suspicious of buying
> > on-line, I just want to know what it is that I'm getting and
whether I
> > really want it.
>
> They're good folks doing good business. They have a viable return
> policy. I've been buying stuff from them for years. In fact, at this
> point, the bulk of our Macquisitions have come from there.
>
> --
> ha

I've been trying to sort out what you and Mike are saying. Are you
using the IDE to firewire gadget from smalldog with the Alesis HD-24 or
are we still in theory. Are you using it just as a general data
transfer unit? About how much was it?
peakester

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> walkinay writes:

> > I bought mine from Smalldog Electronics, up in VT. Given the miniscule
> > size of that part of the country, how hard could it be to road trip? <g>

> Oh, Vermont's about 550 miles. Does Smalldog Electronics have a door?

I believe so.

http/www.smalldog.com

> And a shelf? Or is it someone with a house, a small dog to guard the
> storage shed, and a PO box? Honestly, I'm not suspicious of buying
> on-line, I just want to know what it is that I'm getting and whether I
> really want it.

They're good folks doing good business. They have a viable return
policy. I've been buying stuff from them for years. In fact, at this
point, the bulk of our Macquisitions have come from there.

--
ha

 

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Mike Rivers wrote:

> laurent writes:

> > > Nope, part of what's in the Alesis Firewire dock is firmware (I guess)
> > > to talk to the disk drive and pass the data on to the computer in
> > > "normal" format.

> > Mike, if you're talking about the Alesis Fireport, that's not true.
> > Hardware-wise it's just a IDE-to-Firewire adaptor that accepts the same
> > drive caddies as the HD24. It comes with software to run on the computer
> > that can read the proprietary file format.

> AH, OK, so software, not firmware. At least that makes the Fireport a
> little more useful. You could, I suppose, use it without the Alesis
> software to interface a standard FAT16 or FAT32 disk to a computer
> with a Firewire port?

And now I wonder if one could use a Wiebetech FW DriveDock along with
the Alesis software to do what the Firedock does, or if the software is
tied to the Alesis gizmo.

--
ha

 

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"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:1gujym7.1bog1em345z7sN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
> Mike Rivers wrote:
>
>> Hal Laurent writes:
>
>> > > Nope, part of what's in the Alesis Firewire dock is firmware (I
>> > > guess)
>> > > to talk to the disk drive and pass the data on to the computer in
>> > > "normal" format.
>
>> > Mike, if you're talking about the Alesis Fireport, that's not true.
>> > Hardware-wise it's just a IDE-to-Firewire adaptor that accepts the same
>> > drive caddies as the HD24. It comes with software to run on the
>> > computer
>> > that can read the proprietary file format.
>
>> AH, OK, so software, not firmware. At least that makes the Fireport a
>> little more useful. You could, I suppose, use it without the Alesis
>> software to interface a standard FAT16 or FAT32 disk to a computer
>> with a Firewire port?
>
> And now I wonder if one could use a Wiebetech FW DriveDock along with
> the Alesis software to do what the Firedock does, or if the software is
> tied to the Alesis gizmo.

Sure, that will work technically. You can't legally buy the Alesis software
without the Alesis hardware, though.

The advantage to the Alesis hardware is that you can pull the caddy right
out of the HD24 and plug it into the Fireport.

The disadvantage to the Fireport is that it's a kludgy little thing that
plugs into the back of the drive caddy, and there are four separate plastic
foot thingamajigs (that's the technical term) that you attach to the sides
of the caddy to give it airflow underneath.

I don't know anything about the Wiebetech FW DriveDock, but if it just
coincidentally has a full drive bay that can accept an Alesis HD24 drive
caddy without the annoying need of attaching separate feet, then it might be
something I'd find useful, depending on its price.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

 

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hank alrich wrote:
>
> now I wonder if one could use a Wiebetech FW DriveDock along with
> the Alesis software to do what the Firedock does, or if the software
> is tied to the Alesis gizmo.


Like Hal said, you'd likely create more work taking the drives out of
the Alesis caddy and then plugging the DriveDock into them. You could
do what I did and install a caddy into a 5¼" external FireWire box.
Just find out what kind of caddy/tray system Alesis is using and buy
some of those.