Bipolar Caps

[Jack]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Hey,

I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
the audio signal path?) Thanks

/John\

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Vishay Roederstein EKSU-Series.

Samuel

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

caligulashorse@hotmail.com (Jack) wrote in message news:<c34b05f.0411290000.263de5fb@posting.google.com>...
> Hey,
>
> I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
> bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
> for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
> FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
> generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
> the audio signal path?) Thanks
>
> /John\

You can deal with this a couple of ways. If you use polarized
electrolytics, first use a VOM to determine the side of the cap which
has the greater voltage. Rotate pots and push switches to determine if
the voltage reverses. If not, place the polarized caps with the + pin
to the + voltage. If the dc shifts excessivly you can "create" a
polarized cap by tying the two + input pins of the caps together to
make a non polarized electrolytic. You can further experiment by
adding a polarization voltage to the juction of the + pins.
I would expect using a pair of Panasonic FM series or Rubycon Z
series caps would make a superior non polar cap than any of the pre
made ones out there (Black Gates being an exception). Avoid the
Roedersteins, I've removed thousands of them over the years and they
sound like there's cotton stuffed up your ears. (Plus they are very
large).

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

For sound quality & (especially) reliability, NOTHING can touch the Nichicon Muse bipolars,
which are available cheaply from Handmade Electronics in Allentown, Penna. Digikey finally
started carrying Nichicon caps recently, but not the top grade Muse series. Vastly better than
the Panasonics of any grade or era.

--
Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
Talking Dog Transducer Company
http/stephensank.com
5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
505-332-0336
Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
Payments preferred through Paypal.com
"Jack" <caligulashorse@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c34b05f.0411290000.263de5fb@posting.google.com...
> Hey,
>
> I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
> bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
> for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
> FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
> generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
> the audio signal path?) Thanks
>
> /John\

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jack <caligulashorse@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
>bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
>for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
>FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
>generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
>the audio signal path?) Thanks

What is the device?

Bipolar caps are almost always found in the audio path when you see them,
but you'll need the schematic to be sure. You don't need them in supply
decoupling applications.

Panasonic does make some okay NP types, which you will find a couple pages
later in the Digi-Key book.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jack wrote:
> Hey,
>
> I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
> bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
> for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
> FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
> generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
> the audio signal path?) Thanks
>
> /John\

Hi John,
The panasonic SU series are bi-polars, available at digikey.

Brian

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Brian Allen wrote:

> Jack wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
> > bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
> > for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
> > FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
> > generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
> > the audio signal path?) Thanks
> >
> > /John\
>
> Hi John,
> The panasonic SU series are bi-polars, available at digikey.

Can't tell your location since you're posting through google.

If you're in the UK ( or anywhere else they operate ) , Farnell has a range
too. Also known as 'non-polarised'.

http/uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/searchPage2.jsp?x=26&Ntt=bipolar+electrolytic&Nty=1&N=401&Ntk=gensearch&y=11



Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Stephen Sank wrote:

> For sound quality & (especially) reliability, NOTHING can touch the Nichicon Muse bipolars,
> which are available cheaply from Handmade Electronics in Allentown, Penna. Digikey finally
> started carrying Nichicon caps recently, but not the top grade Muse series. Vastly better than
> the Panasonics of any grade or era.

What characteristics affect the sound quality in your opinion ?

In the audio band, I'd expect a cap to be pretty much a cap. Excepting medium and Hi-Z ceramics
with their voltage dependent dielectric characteristics.

Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Stephen Sank" <bk11@thuntek.net> wrote in message news:<cofqnm$kfu$1@reader2.nmix.net>...
> For sound quality & (especially) reliability, NOTHING can touch the Nichicon Muse bipolars,
> which are available cheaply from Handmade Electronics in Allentown, Penna. Digikey finally
> started carrying Nichicon caps recently, but not the top grade Muse series. Vastly better than
> the Panasonics of any grade or era.
> Have you evaluated the new Panasonic FM series? I would submit that the Rubycon Black Gates are by far the finest electrolytic caps. I also believe no electrolytic cap is good enough for high quality music without another high Q bypass cap around it. Electrolytic caps smash pulses and therefore are transient killers.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

> --
> Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
> Talking Dog Transducer Company
> http/stephensank.com
> 5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
> Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
> 505-332-0336
> Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
> Payments preferred through Paypal.com
> "Jack" <caligulashorse@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c34b05f.0411290000.263de5fb@posting.google.com...
> > Hey,
> >
> > I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
> > bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
> > for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
> > FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
> > generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
> > the audio signal path?) Thanks
> >
> > /John\

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Rubycon Black Gates have quite good performance(though still not as good as Nichicon Muse), as
do Elna Cerafine/Silmic caps, but both makers have a horrible reliability track record, at
least in my 30 years of experience. In all of that time, I can count on one hand, with fingers
left over, the number of Nichicon caps of ANY age or grade that I have had to replace, compared
to many hundreds(thousands, perhaps) of Elna & Rubycon caps. I would say that Rubycon in
particular is the single most UNreliable lytic maker in the world. Just ask any VCR tech.
Panasonics are very reliable & good performers, but a distant second on both counts at any
grade versus Nichicon.
And I do very much agree that even the best lytics need good film byassing for audio apps,
whether in the signal path or power supply. Considering the chemistry/physics of lytics, it's
a miracle they work at all.

--
Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
Talking Dog Transducer Company
http/stephensank.com
5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
505-332-0336
Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
Payments preferred through Paypal.com
"Jim Williams" <jwilliams3@audioupgrades.com> wrote in message
news:a377f4b9.0411300824.5c6a504@posting.google.com...
> "Stephen Sank" <bk11@thuntek.net> wrote in message news:<cofqnm$kfu$1@reader2.nmix.net>...
> > For sound quality & (especially) reliability, NOTHING can touch the Nichicon Muse bipolars,
> > which are available cheaply from Handmade Electronics in Allentown, Penna. Digikey finally
> > started carrying Nichicon caps recently, but not the top grade Muse series. Vastly better
than
> > the Panasonics of any grade or era.
> > Have you evaluated the new Panasonic FM series? I would submit that the Rubycon Black Gates
are by far the finest electrolytic caps. I also believe no electrolytic cap is good enough for
high quality music without another high Q bypass cap around it. Electrolytic caps smash pulses
and therefore are transient killers.
>
> Jim Williams
> Audio Upgrades
>
> > --
> > Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
> > Talking Dog Transducer Company
> > http/stephensank.com
> > 5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
> > Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
> > 505-332-0336
> > Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
> > Payments preferred through Paypal.com
> > "Jack" <caligulashorse@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:c34b05f.0411290000.263de5fb@posting.google.com...
> > > Hey,
> > >
> > > I'm taking on my first recap project, and I've noticed several
> > > bi-polar caps in the circuit. I was planning on using Panasonic FCs
> > > for the whole thing, but it appears as though there aren't any in the
> > > FC series, any suggestions on types I could use, or are they
> > > generally less important (i.e. are bi-polar caps generally not used in
> > > the audio signal path?) Thanks
> > >
> > > /John\

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Stephen Sank wrote:

> Rubycon Black Gates have quite good performance(though still not as good as Nichicon Muse), as
> do Elna Cerafine/Silmic caps, but both makers have a horrible reliability track record, at
> least in my 30 years of experience. In all of that time, I can count on one hand, with fingers
> left over, the number of Nichicon caps of ANY age or grade that I have had to replace, compared
> to many hundreds(thousands, perhaps) of Elna & Rubycon caps. I would say that Rubycon in
> particular is the single most UNreliable lytic maker in the world. Just ask any VCR tech.
> Panasonics are very reliable & good performers, but a distant second on both counts at any
> grade versus Nichicon.
> And I do very much agree that even the best lytics need good film byassing for audio apps,
> whether in the signal path or power supply. Considering the chemistry/physics of lytics, it's
> a miracle they work at all.

Reliability is one issue for sure. If you want long term ultra reliability, don't use caps with an
electrolyte that can dry out.

I sometimes wonder about the condition of those NOS electros being sold on ebay to gullible fools
who think old parts are better than new.

I note an apparent reluctacnce to discuss a scientific reason for the different alleged *sound* of
various brands of capacitors.

Might that be because it's simply rubbish ?

I'd like to see a rational reason posted for bypassing electros with film caps in coupling
applications though.


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>I note an apparent reluctacnce to discuss a scientific reason for the different alleged *sound* of
>various brands of capacitors.
>
>Might that be because it's simply rubbish ?

I'm not willing to say it's rubbish. And I might be willing to believe it
has something to do with rectification effects. I have not seen any good
measurements on this, in either direction.

I _do_ know that if there is too low a DC bias on an electrolytic capacitor,
there are extreme low-level nonlinearities. These are very audible, and
the normal solution, of course, is to make sure the voltage across the cap
is never even close to the zero-crossing. The question is whether any of
these nonlinearities exist at higher levels, and I can't answer that.

>I'd like to see a rational reason posted for bypassing electros with film caps in coupling
>applications though.

If the issue is high order harmonics being generated by small rectification
effects, a bypass capacitor will clean that up.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear"

> I note an apparent reluctacnce to discuss a scientific reason for the
> different alleged *sound* of
> various brands of capacitors.
>
> Might that be because it's simply rubbish ?


** .......... :-0 !!!!

>
> I'd like to see a rational reason posted for bypassing electros with film
> caps in coupling
> applications though.
>


** There is one, the original one that the practice has likely derived
om - tube radios have such bypassed electros in their PSUs. The armchair
experts there have assumed the use of 0.1uF paper caps in parallel with 8
uF, 350 volt electros was to counter the electros alleged "inductance".
But it was not.

It was there to counter RF instability due to the electros ESR at AM radio
frequencies.

The ESR of an old style, low cost 10 uF, 350 volt electro is 15 - 30 ohms -
paralleling a 0.1uF paper cap brought this down to 1 or 2 ohms.





.............. Phil

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

>
>>I'd like to see a rational reason posted for bypassing electros with film
>>caps in coupling
>>applications though.
>>
>
Phil wrote:
>
> ** There is one, the original one that the practice has likely derived
> om - tube radios have such bypassed electros in their PSUs. The armchair
> experts there have assumed the use of 0.1uF paper caps in parallel with 8
> uF, 350 volt electros was to counter the electros alleged "inductance".
> But it was not.
>
> It was there to counter RF instability due to the electros ESR at AM radio
> frequencies.
>
> The ESR of an old style, low cost 10 uF, 350 volt electro is 15 - 30 ohms -
> paralleling a 0.1uF paper cap brought this down to 1 or 2 ohms.
>


This was what my dad told me as well, but even more applicable to the
broadcast transmitters and radar systems he was responsible for. In the
early '70's the electrolytics were still no where near as nice as they
are now, and the film bypass of larger >470uF or so was an audible
improvement.

Nowadays, thanks to the advances made to accomodate switching supplies
the caps have all improved rather dramatically, and I really don't hear
any significant difference with bypassing or different brands.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >I note an apparent reluctacnce to discuss a scientific reason for the different alleged *sound* of
> >various brands of capacitors.
> >
> >Might that be because it's simply rubbish ?
>
> I'm not willing to say it's rubbish. And I might be willing to believe it
> has something to do with rectification effects. I have not seen any good
> measurements on this, in either direction.

Me neither. I'm tempted to have a look though !


> I _do_ know that if there is too low a DC bias on an electrolytic capacitor,
> there are extreme low-level nonlinearities. These are very audible, and
> the normal solution, of course, is to make sure the voltage across the cap
> is never even close to the zero-crossing. The question is whether any of
> these nonlinearities exist at higher levels, and I can't answer that.
>

My understanding is that any rectification effects take place when an electrolytic has > 0.5 reverse V
approx applied. It's easy to ensure this never happens in a coupling cap application - not least by
the use of large values since the component of the signal appearing across the cap will be in the
millivolt area.

Seems to work for the likes of Neve and SSL to mention a couple of high end names using electros with
zero bias. Not to mention almost all pro-audio gear made.


> >I'd like to see a rational reason posted for bypassing electros with film caps in coupling
> >applications though.
>
> If the issue is high order harmonics being generated by small rectification
> effects, a bypass capacitor will clean that up.

Suggested value to bypass 100uF ?


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41B0046E.450F6265@hotmail.com...
> DeserTBoB wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 04:53:12 +0000, Pooh Bear
> > <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >I sometimes wonder about the condition of those NOS electros being sold
on ebay to gullible fools
> > >who think old parts are better than new. <snip>
> >
> > No need to wonder...they're "unformed" and instantly turn into a bomb
> > when B+ is applied.
>
> What has that to do with *coupling* caps ?

Plenty, if the coupling caps are used on a single-supply circuit.

Peace,
Paul

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Paul Stamler wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41B0046E.450F6265@hotmail.com...
> > DeserTBoB wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 04:53:12 +0000, Pooh Bear
> > > <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >I sometimes wonder about the condition of those NOS electros being sold
> on ebay to gullible fools
> > > >who think old parts are better than new. <snip>
> > >
> > > No need to wonder...they're "unformed" and instantly turn into a bomb
> > > when B+ is applied.
> >
> > What has that to do with *coupling* caps ?
>
> Plenty, if the coupling caps are used on a single-supply circuit.

I think the reference was to using them as supply 'bypass caps'.


Graham

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>Strange that almost every single high end recording console uses electrolytics for coupling then ?

Because in the solid-state world there isn't much choice. And one of the
big problems with the early solid-state world is that people adopted the
usual single-ended capacitively-coupled designs that were common with tubes.
Since input impedances were so low, massive caps were required, and so of
course electrolytics turn up.

If somebody made a film cap that was almost as small as an electrolytic and
in the same price range, I don't think you'd see any high end recording
consoles still using electrolytics.

>All ceramics aren't bad btw. The ones with low-K dielectrics like NPO don't suffer the dielectric
>non-linearity You'd only use them for feedback or small value caps in EQ sections though. Not good for
>any more than 330-470 pF in practice..

I really want to know more about ceramic caps... I used to have a strong
anti-ceramic bias until I tried some of the newer COG types which are less
microphonic by a long shot. I want to thank John Hardy for turning me on
to some of the better quality ceramics today. I have used them as coupling
caps in very high-Z circuits and have actually been pleased with the
performance compared with most of the film caps.

>The 'rectification effect' in electrolytics only appears AFAIK when a reverse voltage of around 0.5 V
>is applied. Keep the reverse volts due to an a.c. signal below that and it doesn't happen. That
>*doesn't* mean restricting the a.c. signal value to below 0.5 V though. Think 'potential divider' and
>use large value caps. I commonly use 100uF for outputs and 10uF for inputs where Zin is > = 10k ohm.

Right. Our question is whether there might be some other nonlinear effects
in addition to this one.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Scott Dorsey said:

>I really want to know more about ceramic caps... I used to have a strong
>anti-ceramic bias until I tried some of the newer COG types which are less
>microphonic by a long shot. I want to thank John Hardy for turning me on
>to some of the better quality ceramics today. I have used them as coupling
>caps in very high-Z circuits and have actually been pleased with the
>performance compared with most of the film caps.
>
Thanks for bringing that up. I wrote a paper (logically) entitled
"Ceramic Capacitors" shortly after I began manufacturing the 990
discrete op-amp, and Jung/Marsh had written an article bashing ceramic
capacitors. I pretty much had to use ceramics for the 62pF, 91pF and
150pF values in the 990 circuit due to size limitations, but the premium
type known as the "COG" or "NP0" type, is excellent. If anyone wants to
read my paper, it is on the back page of my 990 data package at:

http/www.johnhardyco.com/pdf/990.pdf

Thank you.

John Hardy
The John Hardy Co.
www.johnhardyco.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Dan Kennedy"
>
>>
>>>I'd like to see a rational reason posted for bypassing electros with film
>>>caps in coupling
>>>applications though.
>>>
>>
> Phil wrote:
>>
>> ** There is one, the original one that the practice has likely derived
>> om - tube radios have such bypassed electros in their PSUs. The
>> armchair experts there have assumed the use of 0.1uF paper caps in
>> parallel with 8 uF, 350 volt electros was to counter the electros
>> alleged "inductance". But it was not.
>>
>> It was there to counter RF instability due to the electros ESR at AM
>> radio frequencies.
>>
>> The ESR of an old style, low cost 10 uF, 350 volt electro is 15 - 30
>> hms - paralleling a 0.1uF paper cap brought this down to 1 or 2 ohms.
>>
>
>
> This was what my dad told me as well, but even more applicable to the
> broadcast transmitters and radar systems he was responsible for. In the
> early '70's the electrolytics were still no where near as nice as they are
> now, and the film bypass of larger >470uF or so was an audible
> improvement.
>


** I have seen many electros that were made in the 1960s of between 20 and
100uF @ 500volts ( in old Fender amps etc ) and their ESR values, even now,
are not more than 1 or 2 ohms. Most modern equivalents are much the same.


> Nowadays, thanks to the advances made to accomodate switching supplies
> the caps have all improved rather dramatically,


** The electrolyte formulation has improved to give far higher
onductivity - so permitting lower ESR values and smaller packages.


> and I really don't hear
> any significant difference with bypassing or different brands.
>


** Correct.



............... Phil