I can't believe...

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How odd. I'm trying to picture Bill Clinton with that cigar saying,
"now is not the time to be pointing the fingers and assigning blame..."

Nah. I keep shifting to Monty Python and the Holy Grail: John Cleese,
having slaughtered half the members of a wedding party, being escorted
around the blood-soaked room by Michael Palin trying to calm everyone by
saying, "now, let's not bicker and argue about who killed who....."

WillStG wrote:
> Kurt Riemann wrote:

>
> I am not alone in this opinion either, today President Clinton
> said the same thing, that this is not the time to be pointing the
> finger and assigning blame, there will be plenty of time for that
> later.
>

 

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In article <kf1Te.13148$B34.7161@trnddc09>, MAMS\
<mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:

> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:h_udnU_1zf81AIHeRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> > "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> > message news:uI0Te.12739$IT4.10269@trnddc04
> >
> > > "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> > > news5qdnfvqe6JY24HeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
> > >> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> > >> message news:ca6dnWrC2fyNAIXeRVn-hg@rcn.net
> > >>
> > >>> Can anyone imagine what toll it would take if New York
> > >>> had to be evacuated?
> > >>
> > >> In fact 500,000 or more were evacuated from Manhattan on
> > >> 9/11. On a normal workday there are 2.2 million
> > >> commuters in New York.
> > >
> > >
> > > But they had a city to return to, didn't they?
> >
> > Different problem.
>
>
> They really never got them out. The bridges were closed before the
> evac was complete, no? Then, they were only a mile or so from food
> and water and no "aftermath" on the environment. Basically, you are
> trying to compare the disaster of a two-block radius, to the destruction
> of an entire coast line and the loss of an entire major city. There is no
> comparison. New York (albeit horrible) on 9/11 can't hold a candle to
> the impact on society that is occuring here.
there was an environmental aftermath. many people couldn't come back to
their apartments as they were covered in all sorts of toxic dust. The
EPA was not honest about it's assesment of the air quality (what else
is new in this administration). Of course there was a city with food
water power and phones only a mile or so away but there was a feeling
that another attack was imminent. Different yet just as scary.

 

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In article <YZWdnXmNnNrLVoHeRVn-2Q@comcast.com>, Arny Krueger
<arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

> "Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:3o3otgF42s72U1@individual.net
> > David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>
>
>
> ...and the president of the United States was begging the
> New Orlean's Mayor to evacuate his city. The Mayor refused
> again and again, but under continuing presidental pressure,
> he finally relented at the last minute.
>
Where did you hear this? He was too busy clearing brush in Crawford
while Condi "auntie tom" Rice was busy taking in broadway shows and
shopping for thousand dollar shoes at farrigamos.

 

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In article <1rCdnZ9Fg_O-aYHeRVn-ug@comcast.com>, Arny Krueger
<arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> message news:i16Te.14218$QN4.10673@trnddc02
> > "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> > news:8oSdnfhPk_8_fYHeRVn-vg@comcast.com...
> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com>...
> >
> >>> I'll have to have a citation (a reputable one, not a
> >>> right-wing website) on this one Arny, before I'll buy a
> >>> single word of it.
> >
> >>
> >> http/www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?base/news-18/112523994020
> >> 1382.xml&storylist=louisiana
> >>
> >> "Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a
> >> news conference, said President Bush called and
> >> personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the
> >> low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."
> >
> >>
> >> http/www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249
> >> 320.xml
> >> In short, President Bush authorized FEMA to do what they
> >> could, on the Saturday before the storm and the
> >> flooding.
> >
> >
> > I'll bite. So what do you suppose happened that no
> > 'visible' action was taken at that time?
>
> Some of that was explained on TV by a National Guard
> general. To protect their equipment from damage by the
> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon as
> the storm dissipated they turned around and headed back
> South, but by then they were several days north of New
> Orleans. They had been running from the storm for serveral
> days after the storm passed through New Orleans. Add up the
> dayss and you see why it took them 3-4 days to get back to
> New Orleans after the storm passed through it.
>
Several days north? where were the trucks?? in canada??? where were the
planes and the choppers? on the moon??

 

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"Guitarboy" <Guitarboy@stringalong.com> wrote in message
news:060920051151484815%Guitarboy@stringalong.com
> In article <1rCdnZ9Fg_O-aYHeRVn-ug@comcast.com>, Arny
> Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

>> Some of that was explained on TV by a National Guard
>> general. To protect their equipment from damage by the
>> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon
>> as the storm dissipated they turned around and headed
>> back South, but by then they were several days north of
>> New Orleans. They had been running from the storm for
>> serveral days after the storm passed through New
>> Orleans. Add up the dayss and you see why it took them
>> 3-4 days to get back to New Orleans after the storm
>> passed through it.

> Several days north? where were the trucks?? in canada???

Have you ever moved a convoy of duce-and-a-halfs any
distance? Been there, done that. Not pretty, and not fast.

> where were the planes and the choppers? on the moon??

Tactical choppers for material transport aren't all that
fast over long distances. They require time-consuming
refueling to travel the distances we're talking. I suspect
they zig-zagged from NG airbase to NG airbase so they didn't
even have the the crow-flies advantage.

 

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"Guitarboy" <Guitarboy@stringalong.com> wrote in message
news:060920051148363217%Guitarboy@stringalong.com
> In article <YZWdnXmNnNrLVoHeRVn-2Q@comcast.com>, Arny
> Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
>> "Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:3o3otgF42s72U1@individual.net
>>> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> ...and the president of the United States was begging the
>> New Orlean's Mayor to evacuate his city. The Mayor
>> refused again and again, but under continuing
>> presidental pressure, he finally relented at the last
>> minute.
>>
> Where did you hear this?

Quote from the Associated Press and the NO newspaper
provided elsewhere in this thread.

 

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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:GOqdnchbvKn9q4HeRVn-oQ@comcast.com...

> "As New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin urged an orderly evacuation of the area
> Saturday, he told residents: "This is not a test. This is the real deal."
>
> http/www.ridegrits.org/PublicTrans.htm
>
> "On September 11, 2001, the New York-New Jersey Port Authority transit
> systems moved people safely away from the World Trade Center disaster. "
>
>
> It appears that there was some lack of planning in New Orleans re: the
> means by which they were directed to get out.
>
According to Sen Landrieu, AMTRAK volunteered their resources, but FEMA
didn't give them a timely go-ahead.

Glenn D.

 

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"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.no.dowdy@hp.nospam.com> wrote in
message news:KljTe.11837$nR4.3477@news.cpqcorp.net
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:GOqdnchbvKn9q4HeRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
>
>> "As New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin urged an orderly
>> evacuation of the area Saturday, he told residents:
>> "This is not a test. This is the real deal."
>> http/www.ridegrits.org/PublicTrans.htm
>>
>> "On September 11, 2001, the New York-New Jersey Port
>> Authority transit systems moved people safely away from
>> the World Trade Center disaster. "

>> It appears that there was some lack of planning in New
>> Orleans re: the means by which they were directed to get
>> out.

> According to Sen Landrieu, AMTRAK volunteered their
> resources, but FEMA didn't give them a timely go-ahead.

And then FEMA got reorganized, some say for better, some say
for worse.

I expect the following fall-out from the New Orleans
disaster:

(1) Cities and states are going to be pressured to have good
disaster plans. Does this mean legislation?

(2) FEMA and NG response time for disasters is going to be
improved. This will cost us money.

(3) A lot of the wailing and finger pointing re: New Orleans
is going to collapse when everybody finds that their
performance, and or the performance of "their guys" was a
country mile short of faultless.

 

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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:qZadnZ2dnZ0JX1WdnZ2dnWmzgd6dnZ2dRVn-zJ2dnZ0@comcast.com...

> Yes, we had an incompetent mayor that knew that 100,000 people lacked the
> personal resources to evacuate the city. He had enough buses to move at
> least half of them, and instead of acting, let the busses rot in that pool
> of water.
Any idea how that evacuation would take place?

Glenn D.

 

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"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.no.dowdy@hp.nospam.com> wrote in
message news:VvjTe.11838$YB4.6292@news.cpqcorp.net
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:qZadnZ2dnZ0JX1WdnZ2dnWmzgd6dnZ2dRVn-zJ2dnZ0@comcast.com...
>
>> Yes, we had an incompetent mayor that knew that 100,000
>> people lacked the personal resources to evacuate the
>> city. He had enough buses to move at least half of
>> them, and instead of acting, let the busses rot in that
>> pool of water.

> Any idea how that evacuation would take place?

A good answer would require that I know what the mayor could
have known had he asked the right questions of the right
people, many of whom reported to him.

Any answer I could give would be speculative. However,
looking at disaster planning for LA & SF might be a good
start.

 

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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
news:e27Te.2949$AB4.2881@trnddc03...
>
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
>
>> To protect their equipment from damage by the
>> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon as
>> the storm dissipated they turned around and headed back
>> South, but by then they were several days north of New
>> Orleans. They had been running from the storm for serveral
>> days after the storm passed through New Orleans. Add up the
>> dayss and you see why it took them 3-4 days to get back to
>> New Orleans after the storm passed through it.
>
>
> I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either. I am in
> Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.
>
Do you reckon the roads might be a bit less passable after a hurricane comes
through?

Glenn D.

 

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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...

> BTW, am I the only person here who notices the fact that
> we're dealing with a situation involving a predominately
> black city and a state with errr, a race-rights history?

Actually... I notice that you're addressing almost everything
but the main issue.

 

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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
message news:TBjTe.17889$Sx4.9020@trnddc06
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
>
>> BTW, am I the only person here who notices the fact that
>> we're dealing with a situation involving a predominately
>> black city and a state with errr, a race-rights history?
>
> Actually... I notice that you're addressing almost
> everything but the main issue.

Which is?

 

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WillStG <willstg@aol.com> wrote:
> Someday Roger, someday perhaps you might let some great tragedy
> pass without giving in to the inevitable, kneejerk impulse to make a
> political football out of it?

> Whether it's a Natural Disaster, an Act of God or a Terrorist
> Attack, somehow it all becomes an excersise in finger pointing and
> political self superiority. Give it a rest at least for a while, please
> - it will make our need to unite during a time of crisis a whole lot
> easier for everyone.

You know, Will, it's always easy to throw around responses like "kneejerk
impulse".

I am still, over a week later, absolutely stunned by what happenned. Far
more than by 9-11. I can not believe that this could happen.
Americans should feel great shame in how you have let your own people
down. As a Canadian, and so in the country most connected to the US
I feel some of this shame myself since if Americans are capable of it,
we may also.

The first disturbing image was while there was a quick exodus organised
out of New Orleans---all I saw was cars cars cars. I did not see a
single bus on those clogged highways. How is possible that in
organising a mass exodus, the US did not organise thousands of busses
to help the poor evacuate the threatened areas.

We get, by satellite, numerous news sources. It has been interesting
to see the shift. While there was some harsh criticism on CNN, you
can already see the spin happening. But fortunately, we can watch
the BBC, and various Canadian news channels (sadly, the CBC has a
strike so the coverage is limited). While CNN and Fox News are
now switching to the relief effort and some of the heartwarming stuff,
at the least the BBC is hammering hard with criticism.

The spin is happening. FEMA and its director are already the scapegoat.
And of course they have failed terribly. But I hope that Americans
will remember what has happened. The shame of allowing tens of
thousands of mostly poor Americans of Colour to die should stay
with you. You must hold your current administration accountable
for this. While there has been endless debate on the merits
of GWB's Presidency over the last 4 or 5 years, there should no longer
be any doubt that this man should not be President, nor should the
people around him be running the country. He must be impeached.
I know it won't make a difference since Cheney will simply complete
the term---but they should still be held accountable.

After 9-11, you went to great lengths to hold the perpetrators responsible.
This disaster is 10 times worse, since the number of deaths should have
been one tenth of what they were.
After you have buried your dead, and rebuilt your cities, please
remember and hold those in charge accountable as you did with 9-11.

Rob R.

 

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"Rob Reedijk" <reedijk@hera.med.utoronto.ca> wrote in
message news:dfkgot$ppf$1@news1.chem.utoronto.ca


> The first disturbing image was while there was a quick
> exodus organised out of New Orleans---all I saw was cars
> cars cars. I did not see a
> single bus on those clogged highways. How is possible
> that in
> organising a mass exodus, the US did not organise
> thousands of busses
> to help the poor evacuate the threatened areas.

If you study disaster planning for US cities, you will find
that the primary responsible parties are the local and
regional governments. I expect more Federal intervention in
this time-honored process may follow recent events.

The public record shows that the New Orlean's mayor's
biggest concern was liability for calling for an evacuation,
and that he had to be repeatedly begged by no less than the
president of the US before he acted.

BTW, the president of the U.S. authorized all necessary
steps be taken by all federal agencies on Saturday before
the storm, which was the day he was asked to do so by the
designated local authority, the governor of Lousiana.

The mayor of New Orleans had about a thousand busses at his
finger tips. They have been photographed from air and are
currently *swimming* in New Orleans. The public record
indicates that he put a whopping ten (10) of them into
service, for the purpose of moving people to the Superdome.
This proves that he had control of the busses, but also
shows his limited vision.

The public record also shows that the mayor told people to
prepare for only 3-4 days in the dome and bring their own
food and water. This shows that the mayor underestimated the
response time of state and federal relief agencies which is
well known to be 3-5 days. It also shows that the mayor made
zero infrastructure preparations for his people.

I might speculate that once the proverbial substance hit the
proverbial fan, the mayor and his political allies went into
overdrive to raise a smokescreen to cover up his
questionable actions by blaming the Federal government.

 

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"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.no.dowdy@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message news:GfjTe.11836$IB4.3642@news.cpqcorp.net...

> President Bush declared a state of emergency in La on Saturday, 8/27
> http/www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html
>
> "Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its
> discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of
> the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including
> direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding."


So we ask again... WHY was nothing done, and at whos "discretion" ?

 

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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:Xq6dnV3uf849G4DeRVn-1g@comcast.com...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> message news:e27Te.2949$AB4.2881@trnddc03
> > "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
> >
> >> To protect their equipment from damage by the
> >> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon
> >> as the storm dissipated they turned around and headed
> >> back South, but by then they were several days north of
> >> New Orleans. They had been running from the storm for
> >> serveral days after the storm passed through New
> >> Orleans. Add up the dayss and you see why it took them
> >> 3-4 days to get back to New Orleans after the storm
> >> passed through it.
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either.
> > I am in Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.
>
> Dallas wasn't an acceptable alternative because of its
> potential to be in the path of the hurricane.


Look, Arny... 100 miles inland would have been sufficient.
The truth of the matter is that there essentially WAS NO
National Guard. Besides, it's a military machine... it doesn't
run from wind and rain. This is bogus.

 

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"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.no.dowdy@hp.nospam.com> wrote in message news:IAjTe.11839$nT4.5361@news.cpqcorp.net...
>
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in message
> news:e27Te.2949$AB4.2881@trnddc03...
> >
> > "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
> >
> >> To protect their equipment from damage by the
> >> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon as
> >> the storm dissipated they turned around and headed back
> >> South, but by then they were several days north of New
> >> Orleans. They had been running from the storm for serveral
> >> days after the storm passed through New Orleans. Add up the
> >> dayss and you see why it took them 3-4 days to get back to
> >> New Orleans after the storm passed through it.
> >
> >
> > I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either. I am in
> > Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.
> >
> Do you reckon the roads might be a bit less passable after a hurricane comes
> through?


Sure... roads might even be *missing*!! When did a road stop the military?

Have you been missing the interviews with guys that drove all the way
from Los Angeles on Monday & Tuesday with boats in tow? Sure, they
had to circumvent some debris, but they drove right in and went to work
with civilian vehicles. So did dozens of others from anround the country.

 

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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
message news:hKjTe.17892$Sx4.14845@trnddc06
> "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.no.dowdy@hp.nospam.com> wrote in
> message news:IAjTe.11839$nT4.5361@news.cpqcorp.net...
>>
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
>> message news:e27Te.2949$AB4.2881@trnddc03...
>>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
>>>
>>>> To protect their equipment from damage by the
>>>> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As
>>>> soon as the storm dissipated they turned around and
>>>> headed back South, but by then they were several days
>>>> north of New Orleans. They had been running from the
>>>> storm for serveral days after the storm passed through
>>>> New Orleans. Add up the dayss and you see why it took
>>>> them 3-4 days to get back to New Orleans after the
>>>> storm passed through it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse
>>> either. I am in Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight
>>> drive.
>>>
>> Do you reckon the roads might be a bit less passable
>> after a hurricane comes through?
>
>
> Sure... roads might even be *missing*!! When did a road
> stop the military?

Having been there and done that (military overland travel)
that really slows you down!

> Have you been missing the interviews with guys that drove
> all the way
> from Los Angeles on Monday & Tuesday with boats in tow?

Have I ever driven a military truck with a trailer in tow?
Yes. Give me a SUV and a boat!

> Sure, they
> had to circumvent some debris, but they drove right in
> and went to work
> with civilian vehicles. So did dozens of others from
> anround the country.

How much road clearing had already taken place before they
made their trips?

 

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In article <T9mdna8D3IzPUYDeRVn-uw@comcast.com>, Arny Krueger
<arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> message news:hKjTe.17892$Sx4.14845@trnddc06
> > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.no.dowdy@hp.nospam.com> wrote in
> > message news:IAjTe.11839$nT4.5361@news.cpqcorp.net...
> >>
> >> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> >> message news:e27Te.2949$AB4.2881@trnddc03...
> >>>
> >>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
> >>>
> >>>> To protect their equipment from damage by the
> >>>> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As
> >>>> soon as the storm dissipated they turned around and
> >>>> headed back South, but by then they were several days
> >>>> north of New Orleans. They had been running from the
> >>>> storm for serveral days after the storm passed through
> >>>> New Orleans. Add up the dayss and you see why it took
> >>>> them 3-4 days to get back to New Orleans after the
> >>>> storm passed through it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse
> >>> either. I am in Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight
> >>> drive.
> >>>
> >> Do you reckon the roads might be a bit less passable
> >> after a hurricane comes through?
> >
> >
> > Sure... roads might even be *missing*!! When did a road
> > stop the military?
>
> Having been there and done that (military overland travel)
> that really slows you down!
>
> > Have you been missing the interviews with guys that drove
> > all the way
> > from Los Angeles on Monday & Tuesday with boats in tow?
>
> Have I ever driven a military truck with a trailer in tow?
> Yes. Give me a SUV and a boat!
>
> > Sure, they
> > had to circumvent some debris, but they drove right in
> > and went to work
> > with civilian vehicles. So did dozens of others from
> > anround the country.
>
> How much road clearing had already taken place before they
> made their trips?
>
Harry Conick was there before the millitary. Are you telling me that if
Harry Conick Jr could get in there, the millitary couldn't? Maybe we
should buy them whatever kind of SUV he was driving insted of Hum Vees.