I can't believe...

Page 9 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Guide community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> This apparent lack of preparedness and obvious failure to act is gross
> in it's negligence. Only the local authorities and the Coast Guard could
> have acted without direct orders from the CIC... and given the evidence
> of the past several years of documentaries and reporting as above, there
> is simply no excuse here.

Just saw a former FEMA director speaking. He said, which many know by
now, that what we witnessed is a direct result of the current
administration's budget cuts to FEMA and the fact that it was rolled
into the Department of Homeland Security.

Feeling pretty secure?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Former director wants FEMA out of Homeland Security

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — Putting the Federal Emergency Management Agency under
the Department of Homeland Security has hampered its ability to deal
with hurricanes and other disasters, former FEMA Director James Lee Witt
said Friday.

Posted 3/25/2005 7:04 PM


http://www.usatoday.com/weather/hurricane/2005-03-25-witt-fema_x.htm?csp=34


Emergency managers and other state and local officials attending the
National Hurricane Conference applauded Witt when he urged that FEMA
again be made a separate agency, saying it still could focus on all
hazards whether terrorist attacks, earthquakes, floods or killer storms.

"The emphasis is not there like it used to be," Witt later told
reporters. "Putting FEMA under the Department of Homeland Security has
minimized their effectiveness in responding, in planning and training,
the national hurricane program, everything."

Witt also urged more spending on the hurricane program, which is facing
potential cuts, and said the agency has been too slow in passing on
federal emergency funding to where it is needed.

"Put the money down to the state and local government," he said to more
applause. "Let them do their job. They know what to do."

Local officials in Florida, which was hit by a state record four
hurricanes last year, also have complained about delays in getting
reimbursement for millions of dollars spent for debris removal and other
cleanup costs.

The agency, meanwhile, has come under fire for distributing $30 million
in assistance to about 13,000 residents of Miami-Dade County although
not hit by hurricane force winds.

One Florida congressman, Rep. Mark Foley, R-West Palm Beach, has
threatened to introduce legislation to separate FEMA because of those
issues.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...

> ...and the president of the United States was begging the
> New Orlean's Mayor to evacuate his city. The Mayor refused
> again and again, but under continuing presidental pressure,
> he finally relented at the last minute.


I'll have to have a citation (a reputable one, not a right-wing website)
on this one Arny, before I'll buy a single word of it. For 2.5 more days
the pan-brain went on with his scheduled fund-raisers and pro-war
rallying around the party campfires before finally acknowledging there
was a problem and returning from *vacation*... only then to take time
for a few fine photo-ops on site before returning to Washington to refuse
the help being offered by foreign nations. France, with it's long ties to
New Orleans, could actually have had men, equipment and supplies
on the N.O. soil by Tuesday evening... when the 'green' choppers
(uncle sam) didn't show up until Thursday morning.

Refusing the help of Cuba (could have been on site by Monday night)
was the stupidest move of his recent weeks.

This is an abomination to say the least.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
message news:SE4Te.16451$Sx4.13729@trnddc06
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
>
>> ...and the president of the United States was begging the
>> New Orlean's Mayor to evacuate his city. The Mayor
>> refused again and again, but under continuing
>> presidental pressure, he finally relented at the last
>> minute.
>
>
> I'll have to have a citation (a reputable one, not a
> right-wing website) on this one Arny, before I'll buy a
> single word of it.

http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?base/news-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana

"Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news
conference, said President Bush called and personally
appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city,
which is prone to flooding."

This and several other independent sources quote the same
article by the Associated Press.

> For 2.5 more days the pan-brain went
> on with his scheduled fund-raisers and pro-war rallying
> around the party campfires before finally acknowledging
> there was a problem and returning from *vacation*... only
> then to take time for a few fine photo-ops on site
> before returning to
> Washington to refuse the help being offered by foreign
> nations.

Well...

http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml
"On Saturday at 7 p.m., the Hurricane Center placed the
storm 360 miles southeast of the mouth of the Mississippi
River, with winds of 115 mph. The forecast projected the
storm sweeping directly over the city.

"The Hurricane Center posted a hurricane warning from Morgan
City to the Alabmama-Florida line.

"President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana,
authorizing federal emergency management officials to
release federal aid and coordinate disaster relief efforts.

and:

"Nagin added, ...bring small quantities of food for three or
four days, to be safe."

In short, President Bush authorized FEMA to do what they
could, on the Saturday before the storm and the flooding.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:8oSdnfhPk_8_fYHeRVn-vg@comcast.com...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com>...

> > I'll have to have a citation (a reputable one, not a
> > right-wing website) on this one Arny, before I'll buy a
> > single word of it.

> http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?base/news-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana
>
> "Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news
> conference, said President Bush called and personally
> appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city,
> which is prone to flooding."

> http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml
> In short, President Bush authorized FEMA to do what they
> could, on the Saturday before the storm and the flooding.


I'll bite. So what do you suppose happened that no 'visible' action
was taken at that time?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
message news:i16Te.14218$QN4.10673@trnddc02
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:8oSdnfhPk_8_fYHeRVn-vg@comcast.com...
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com>...
>
>>> I'll have to have a citation (a reputable one, not a
>>> right-wing website) on this one Arny, before I'll buy a
>>> single word of it.
>
>> http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?base/news-18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana
>>
>> "Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a
>> news conference, said President Bush called and
>> personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the
>> low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."
>
>> http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml
>> In short, President Bush authorized FEMA to do what they
>> could, on the Saturday before the storm and the
>> flooding.
>
>
> I'll bite. So what do you suppose happened that no
> 'visible' action was taken at that time?

Some of that was explained on TV by a National Guard
general. To protect their equipment from damage by the
storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon as
the storm dissipated they turned around and headed back
South, but by then they were several days north of New
Orleans. They had been running from the storm for serveral
days after the storm passed through New Orleans. Add up the
dayss and you see why it took them 3-4 days to get back to
New Orleans after the storm passed through it.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Anyway, back to the facts:
-----------------------


Why FEMA Was Missing in Action

Most of the agency's preparedness budget and focus are related to
terrorism, not disasters.

WASHINGTON — While the federal government has spent much of the last
quarter-century trimming the safety nets it provides Americans, it has
dramatically expanded its promise of protection in one area — disaster.

Since the 1970s, Washington has emerged as the insurer of last resort
against floods, fires, earthquakes and — after 2001 — terrorist attacks.
But the government's stumbling response to the storm that devastated the
nation's Gulf Coast reveals that the federal agency singularly most
responsible for making good on Washington's expanded promise has been
hobbled by cutbacks and a bureaucratic downgrading.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency once speedily delivered food,
water, shelter and medical care to disaster areas, and paid to quickly
rebuild damaged roads and schools and get businesses and people back on
their feet. Like a commercial insurance firm setting safety standards to
prevent future problems, it also underwrote efforts to get cities and
states to reduce risks ahead of time and plan for what they would do if
calamity struck.

But in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, FEMA lost its
Cabinet-level status as it was folded into the giant new Department of
Homeland Security. And in recent years it has suffered budget cuts, the
elimination or reduction of key programs and an exodus of experienced
staffers.



http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fema5sep05,1,6530955.story?coll=la-tot-promo
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jebabical wrote:

> http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-fema5sep05,1,6530955.story?coll=la-tot-promo

From the article, highlighting the difference between Clinton
appointments and Bush's :

FEMA was created in 1979 in response to criticism about Washington's
fragmented reaction to a series of disasters, including Hurricane
Camille, which devastated the Mississippi coast 10 years earlier. The
agency was rocked by scandal in the 1980s and turned in such a poor
performance after Hurricane Andrew struck South Florida in 1992 that
President George H.W. Bush is thought to have lost votes as a result.

But according to a variety of former officials and outside experts, the
agency experienced a renaissance under President Clinton's director,
James Lee Witt, speedily responding to the 1993 Mississippi flood, the
1994 Northridge earthquake and other disasters.

Witt's biggest change was to get FEMA to focus on reducing risks ahead
of disasters and funding local prevention programs.

After the 1993 flood, for instance, Witt's agency bought homes and
businesses nearest the water and moved their occupants to safer
locations. The result in one Illinois town was that although more than
400 people applied for disaster aid after the flood, only 11 needed to
apply two years later when the river again jumped its banks.

"He got communities to take practical steps like encouraging homeowners
to bolt buildings to foundations in earthquake-prone areas and elevate
living space in flood-prone ones," said Howard Kunreuther, co-director
of the Wharton Risk Center at the University of Pennsylvania.

But with the change of administration in 2001, many of Witt's prevention
programs were reduced or cut entirely. After Sept. 11, former FEMA
officials and outside authorities said, Washington's attention turned to
terrorism to the exclusion of almost anything else.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:10:46 GMT, SSJVCmag <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com>
wrote:

>> He was supposed to have appointed all the right people for all of
>> the right tasks, and divided the right responsibilities among the right
>> people. If the country doesn't now see that his'right' is so very, very,
>> wrong, we have a bigger problem than just leadership.
>
>
>You missed the last election, didn't you?
>

The one where more people voted against Bush than voted for Reagan?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:3o413fF4262dU1@individual.net
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >
> >> A million homeless in a city with a population of
> >> 500,000? Neat trick, if you can get anybody with a brain
> >> to
> >> believe it.
> >
> > Well anyone with a brain (apparently not you) would get
> > that 500,000 is in the city itself. The metro area has
> > (had) between 1 and 2 million.
>
> You do an energetic but highly inaccurate job of making up
> numbers.
>
> The NO metro area has a population of 1.3 million, which
> still does not fit with the number of homeless stated in the
> article.

No ? I heard about a million were currently 'dsiplaced'. That seems to
broadly accord with your number for the population of the area.

Graham
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jebabical wrote:

> normanstrong@comcast.net wrote:
> > Bush is not particularly good in emergencies. He seems like a deer caught
> > in headlights. Eventually, he gets his act together, but I sure wouldn't
> > want to rely on him for guidance during an emergency situation.
>
>
> Emergencies are really the main priority of the President. "Commander in
> Chief". Someone the country can look up to and feel comfort from in
> times of crises.

Quite so. It's the job of the top guy to give re-assurance to ppl as much as
anything simply as a figurehead and indeed also to get on the phone and make
goddam sure everyone's pulling their finger out and getting stuff done. Funnily
enough, it seems that 'even' Bush finally did just that and things started
happening. Trouble is, he did it about 4 days late !

During WW2 for example the British King and Queen visited the bombing in London
( and elsewhere ) . They couldn't do much but their appearance at least made the
poor bombed out ppl feel valued.

> Besides, what exactly is it that Bush is good at?

That's another story entirely.

Graham
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...

> To protect their equipment from damage by the
> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon as
> the storm dissipated they turned around and headed back
> South, but by then they were several days north of New
> Orleans. They had been running from the storm for serveral
> days after the storm passed through New Orleans. Add up the
> dayss and you see why it took them 3-4 days to get back to
> New Orleans after the storm passed through it.


I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either. I am in
Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either. I am in
> Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.

Is this moron a Bush spokesman or what? He reminds me of Baghdad Bob.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote:

> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
>
> > To protect their equipment from damage by the
> > storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon as
> > the storm dissipated they turned around and headed back
> > South, but by then they were several days north of New
> > Orleans. They had been running from the storm for serveral
> > days after the storm passed through New Orleans. Add up the
> > dayss and you see why it took them 3-4 days to get back to
> > New Orleans after the storm passed through it.
>
> I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either. I am in
> Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.

It really doesn't sound very convincing does it. Smacks of buck-passing.

In any event it can surely be shown to true or false ? Or has truth
vanished in the New American Century ?

Graham
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

Jebabical wrote:

> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either. I am in
> > Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.
>
> Is this moron a Bush spokesman or what? He reminds me of Baghdad Bob.

You mean Comical Ali ? ( his UK nickname )

Graham
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

In article <1125984863.356054.86700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"WillStG" <willstg@aol.com> wrote:

> we
> should save the living and bury our dead first. We have plenty of
> time to be wading knee deep in more endless political ranting later.

Hypocrite.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:dfj0o00h9u@enews2.newsguy.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> Speaking of previous relevant experience, let's talk
>> about the Mayor of New Orleans.
>>
>> Zero previous experience in government, not even
>> governor of Texas. ;-)
>>
>> His career was installing TV cable systems, Before
>> becoming Mayor, Mr Nagin served as the vice president
>> and general manager for Cox Communications in south-east
>> Louisiana.

> This is extremely common for Mayor's everywhere. Disaster
> management is almost nowhere considered a requisite for
> that office.

Then why do so many cities have good disaster management
plans?

BTW, the mayors don't have to know anything about disaster
management, they just have to be able to wake up and smell
the coffee.

>This is exactly why such management must be
> dealt with at a national level.

Here's the problem especially with states like Lousiana,
this puts you right in the middle of a state's rights
situation.

BTW, am I the only person here who notices the fact that
we're dealing with a situation involving a predominately
black city and a state with errr, a race-rights history?

We've got a similar situation here in Michigan, about right
under my nose. It's called Detroit. While Michigan does not
have hands that are exactly clean of racial politics, I'd
like to think we're a little ahead of Lousiana. It's not a
pretty picture under the best of circumstances.

> There is no other way to
> get the required uniform co-ordination and multi-state
> response.

We seem to have a pracctical contradiction of that theory
right before us, involving the response of Texas.

> The people under attack in such a situation are
> the last people that should be expected to be managing
> the problem for all kinds of obvious reasons.

Like I keep saying, this problem is verrrry old, and
predates the emergency at hand by decades.

> I think most of us believed that the fed understood this
> and were prepared for states coming under attack by at
> least something this predictable with such a predictable
> scope.

The fed is not all-powerful. For example, its still the law
that the National Guard can't enter a state with police
powers without being given them by the state.

> The reality is a stunner.

Lots of people put their heads in the sand and decided to
play politics instead of address a projected prolbem that
became reality.

BTW, who is Trent Lott and why is he building shipyards
instead of dealing with this problem in advance?

>The fed is like an insurance company in this regard.

Next-day claims service is a rarity.

> No state or locality
> can possibly be liable for the specific disaster that can
> befall it.

No doubt the fed is going to pour tons of money into this
catastrophe.

> As we see, events can be too big for that.

Remember this discussion started out someplace else -
response time by Fema and the perception that the president
held up approvals for some unknown reason. The public
record shows a different story - the problem started out at
the local level.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:dfj1880i8b@enews2.newsguy.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>> "Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote
>> in message
>> news:hnbnh1p08s0a5hkl3j3fesr1ha3ugthk8t@4ax.com
>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
>>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
>>>>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal
>>>>> to evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
>>>>
>>>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>>
>>
>> When New Orleans needed to be evacuated before the storm,
>> the bus drivers were presumably in New Orleans.
>
> Yeah, waiting by the phone for instructions. Give this
> one up, Arny, it just doesn't work.

It's hard to reason with people who have an unreasoning
hatred for our current administration.

> Continuing to propose an unrealistic solution makes you
> eqivalent to those you criticize who had to actually
> function under fire.

I'm not doing that.

>A day or two may seem like a lot to
> you in your placid situation but to those imbedded in the
> crisis it is a blurry, chaotic moment.

If there was something meaningful I could do to help, I'd do
it.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
news:dfj1i61i8b@enews2.newsguy.com
> Pooh Bear wrote:
>
>> Who was it who said " the buck stops here " ?
>
> I think it was some obscure Democrat.
>

Harry S. Truman - a president who looks better and better as
history passes.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.audio.pro (More info?)

"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
message news:e27Te.2949$AB4.2881@trnddc03
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message...
>
>> To protect their equipment from damage by the
>> storm, they moved it north, ahead of the storm. As soon
>> as the storm dissipated they turned around and headed
>> back South, but by then they were several days north of
>> New Orleans. They had been running from the storm for
>> serveral days after the storm passed through New
>> Orleans. Add up the dayss and you see why it took them
>> 3-4 days to get back to New Orleans after the storm
>> passed through it.
>
>
> I'm sorry again, Arny... I won't buy that excuse either.
> I am in Dallas and New Orleans is an overnight drive.

Dallas wasn't an acceptable alternative because of its
potential to be in the path of the hurricane.