I can't believe...

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Arny Krueger wrote:
> Good idea. How about holding the mayor of New Orleans
> responsbility for his inactions as well?

This is a discussion I have been suggesting we can all leave for
later Arny. The Mayor still has an important role to play in the
recovery effort, everyone does. There are times when politics or even
ordinary criticism serves no useful purpose; I would suggest this is
such an extraordinary time.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV/Audio Post Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits

 

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Chris Hornbeck <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 04:13:03 +0100, Pooh Bear
><rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Is the typical National Guard trooper capable / qualified to drive a bus
>>?
>
>Couldn't you or I drive a bus? I bet we'd figure it out.

Okay, name the movie that has Stevie Wonder in a cameo role as the
school bus driver who drives by smell.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 

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In article <1125933797.384382.200380@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"WillStG" <willstg@aol.com> wrote:

> And I beleive eventually political
> "pressure" or "force" is not the path to lasting change, and only
> perpetuates the political "cycle of violence." Freedom, love, unity,
> forgiveness.

Hypocrite.

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
> in message news:431BAE92.90E57AE6@hotmail.com
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >
> >> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> >> message news:JY2dnagkld34FIbeRVn-tA@rcn.net
> >>
> >>> But do so many people have to die due to a lack of
> >>> effort?
> >>
> >> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
> >> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
> >> evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
> >
> > Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>
> In the days before the hurricane when their services were
> needed, they were no doubt in New Orleans.

And them they were told to get out.

Graham

 

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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431C3413.B2E09BA4@hotmail.com

> Arny Krueger wrote:

>> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com>
>> wrote in message news:431BAE92.90E57AE6@hotmail.com
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>>>> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:JY2dnagkld34FIbeRVn-tA@rcn.net
>
>>>>> But do so many people have to die due to a lack of
>>>>> effort?

>>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
>>>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal
>>>> to evacuate citizens with transportation problems.

>>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.

>> In the days before the hurricane when their services were
>> needed, they were no doubt in New Orleans.

> And then they were told to get out.

Right:

http/www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-katrina28aug28,0,7925566.story?coll=la-home-headlines

"As New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin urged an orderly
evacuation of the area Saturday, he told residents: "This is
not a test. This is the real deal."

http/www.ridegrits.org/PublicTrans.htm

"On September 11, 2001, the New York-New Jersey Port
Authority transit systems moved people safely away from the
World Trade Center disaster. "


It appears that there was some lack of planning in New
Orleans re: the means by which they were directed to get
out.

It's my recollection that mobilizing public transportation
for evacuation was part of the old Civil Defense planning
that we were talking about. 1950's technology...


Here are the documentes referencing evacuation on the LA
Metro web site:

http/mtasearch2.metro.net/search?q=evacuation&site=Metro_Internet&client=Metro_Internet&proxystylesheet=Metro_Internet&output=xml_no_dtd&btnG.x=49&btnG.y=9

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in
> message news:hnbnh1p08s0a5hkl3j3fesr1ha3ugthk8t@4ax.com
> > On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
> > <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
> >>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
> >>> evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
> >>
> >> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>
> When New Orleans needed to be evacuated before the storm,
> the bus drivers were presumably in New Orleans.
>
> > The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
> > 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
>
> Would that be the Lousiana NG? There were no doubt at least
> 2,000 NG still in Lousiana,.
>
> That shifts the blame to the governor of Lousiana.

*Blame shifting* isn't going to help.

What you clearly needed was a considered emergency plan.

That requires co-ordination at the city, state and federal level.

That's something that simply doesn't exist it seems.

Graham

 

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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431C3494.797AE27C@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote
>> in message
>> news:hnbnh1p08s0a5hkl3j3fesr1ha3ugthk8t@4ax.com
>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
>>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
>>>>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal
>>>>> to evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
>>>>
>>>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>>
>> When New Orleans needed to be evacuated before the storm,
>> the bus drivers were presumably in New Orleans.
>>
>>> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
>>> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
>>
>> Would that be the Lousiana NG? There were no doubt at
>> least 2,000 NG still in Lousiana,.
>>
>> That shifts the blame to the governor of Lousiana.

> *Blame shifting* isn't going to help.

Please tell that to the people who want to shift the blame
for the mess in New Orleans to the President of the United
States.

In the U.S. the soviergnity of the federal government in
states internal matters including disaster planning and
response is strictly limited by law.

Ironically, some of the strongest centers of belief in
state's rights in the U.S. are Lousiana and Mississippi.

Do you know what the Klu Klux Klan is?

Do you know who Huey Long was?

Do you know who David Duke is?

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
> in message news:431BB7BF.413A477E@hotmail.com
> > Chris Hornbeck wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
> >> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
> >>>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal
> >>>> to evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
> >>>
> >>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
> >>
> >> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
> >> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
> >>
> >> It could have been done, but it wasn't. Heads
> >> should roll, but won't. You really have no idea
> >> how much shuckin' and divin' are the new American
> >> politic.
> >>
> >> Absolutely *nothing* is too hard to sell to true
> >> believers.
> >>
> >> Chris Hornbeck
> >
> > Is the typical National Guard trooper capable / qualified
> > to drive a bus ?
>
> You haven't explained why the licenced bus driver in New
> Orleans couldn't be asked to do their jobs. The evacuration
> was supposed to be done before the hurricane showed up,
> remember?

No. The evacuation was a last minute thing. If you did it earlier you
might evacuate ppl *into its path*. The landfall of a hurricane is not
reliably predictabe to that degree.

Graham

 

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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431C34F8.13BB8AAF@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com>
>> wrote in message news:431BB7BF.413A477E@hotmail.com
>>> Chris Hornbeck wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
>>>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put
>>>>>> forth the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his
>>>>>> disposal to evacuate citizens with transportation
>>>>>> problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>>>>
>>>> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
>>>> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
>>>>
>>>> It could have been done, but it wasn't. Heads
>>>> should roll, but won't. You really have no idea
>>>> how much shuckin' and divin' are the new American
>>>> politic.
>>>>
>>>> Absolutely *nothing* is too hard to sell to true
>>>> believers.
>>>>
>>>> Chris Hornbeck
>>>
>>> Is the typical National Guard trooper capable /
>>> qualified to drive a bus ?
>>
>> You haven't explained why the licenced bus driver in New
>> Orleans couldn't be asked to do their jobs. The
>> evacuration was supposed to be done before the hurricane
>> showed up, remember?
>
> No. The evacuation was a last minute thing. If you did it
> earlier you might evacuate ppl *into its path*. The
> landfall of a hurricane is not reliably predictabe to
> that degree.

Evacuation plans are generally a one-size fits all disasters
kind of thing. They are made well in advances, such as the
ones I documented for Los Angeles in another post.

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
> in message news:431BAA29.746F8407@hotmail.com
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >
> >> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> >> message news:QKidnZM-DfvKzobeRVn-rg@rcn.net
> >>
> >>> No, Arny. That's not the way emergency management
> >>> works.
> >>
> >> Agreed. I'm not talking about emergency *management* but
> >> instead emergency execution.
> >>
> >>> Those under an emegency shouldn't have to make the
> >>> decision to take their own first over others that might
> >>> be in as great or greater need, or vice versa.
> >>
> >> Tell that to Graham. It's his issue. He said that it was
> >> illogical to ask the New Orleans bus drivers to drive New
> >> Orleans citizens out of town.
> >>
> >> I probably should have pointed out that half of the NOPD
> >> stayed at their posts, therefore it might have been
> >> reasonable to expect half of the bus drivers to do their
> >> jobs.
> >
> > It would indeed make sense - *if* they were designated as
> > emergency workers.
>
> That's called preparedness.
>
> > I'd expect that to merit some financial incentive for
> > starters. And then of course - how do the bus drivers get
> > their own families out of the city if they're at work ?
>
> Asked and answered.
>
> > All of this requires proper planning. Planning was absent
> > at *all* levels it seems.
>
> As I've shown you with examples from California and Los
> Angeles, emergency planning is first and foremost the
> responsibility of the state and the city.
>
> Note that the Federal government has just offered to take
> over running the rescue operations, and the local officials
> have refused. In the US, local entities like cities and
> states have considerable soveirgnity.
>
> > The final bucjk stops at the boss's desk though. If even
> > your federal gov't can't get its act together then how do
> > you expect anyone else to be able to do better ?
>
> If you haven't noticed, as promised (3-5 days after the
> beginning of the disaster) the federal resources are on
> site, taking care of business.

3-5 days *LATE* Arny !

I heard that FEMA even turned away water and diesel.

Graham

 

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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431C354E.3AEE5F5@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com>
>> wrote in message news:431BAA29.746F8407@hotmail.com
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:QKidnZM-DfvKzobeRVn-rg@rcn.net
>>>>
>>>>> No, Arny. That's not the way emergency management
>>>>> works.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed. I'm not talking about emergency *management*
>>>> but instead emergency execution.
>>>>
>>>>> Those under an emegency shouldn't have to make the
>>>>> decision to take their own first over others that
>>>>> might be in as great or greater need, or vice versa.
>>>>
>>>> Tell that to Graham. It's his issue. He said that it
>>>> was illogical to ask the New Orleans bus drivers to
>>>> drive New Orleans citizens out of town.
>>>>
>>>> I probably should have pointed out that half of the
>>>> NOPD stayed at their posts, therefore it might have
>>>> been reasonable to expect half of the bus drivers to
>>>> do their jobs.
>>>
>>> It would indeed make sense - *if* they were designated
>>> as emergency workers.
>>
>> That's called preparedness.
>>
>>> I'd expect that to merit some financial incentive for
>>> starters. And then of course - how do the bus drivers
>>> get their own families out of the city if they're at
>>> work ?
>>
>> Asked and answered.
>>
>>> All of this requires proper planning. Planning was
>>> absent at *all* levels it seems.
>>
>> As I've shown you with examples from California and Los
>> Angeles, emergency planning is first and foremost the
>> responsibility of the state and the city.
>>
>> Note that the Federal government has just offered to take
>> over running the rescue operations, and the local
>> officials have refused. In the US, local entities like
>> cities and states have considerable soveirgnity.
>>
>>> The final bucjk stops at the boss's desk though. If even
>>> your federal gov't can't get its act together then how
>>> do you expect anyone else to be able to do better ?
>>
>> If you haven't noticed, as promised (3-5 days after the
>> beginning of the disaster) the federal resources are on
>> site, taking care of business.
>
> 3-5 days *LATE* Arny !

No, right on schedule.

It is well known and generally accepted that it will take
3-5 days for a significant national response to a serious
disaster to be implemented. That number is published all
over the web, by many different authorities. That isn't a
number for just blacks, or just southerners, or just the
poor, its a number for *everybody*.

Some people are trying to make political hay out of this
fact, that's all.

> I heard that FEMA even turned away water and diesel.

People say lots of things. What's the truth and why?

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Agent 86" <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in message
> newsan.2005.09.05.01.41.13.709527@control.gov
> > On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:28:43 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:
> >
> >> That would be one place where we differ, Roger. I'm of
> >> the opinon that its up to the citizens to support the
> >> city.
> >
> > Earth to Arny...
> > There IS NO CITY.
>
> Inablility to see a philosophical discussion for what it is
> noted.
>
> However, it seems that the legal entity called New Orleans
> still exists, at least in the mind of its mayor.
>
> >> This isn't about withholding relief from the needy. Its
> >> about holding people responsbile for their actions
> >> regardless of their color.
>
> > How about holding the so-called leader of the free world
> > responsible for his inaction, regardless of how much
> > money his daddy has?
>
> Good idea. How about holding the mayor of New Orleans
> responsbility for his inactions as well?

As I've said many times.....

Once the power, phones, highways and bridges were out and the place was
flooded he was essentially powerless.


Graham

 

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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431C35B6.4892BBA9@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Agent 86" <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in message
>> newsan.2005.09.05.01.41.13.709527@control.gov
>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:28:43 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>>> That would be one place where we differ, Roger. I'm of
>>>> the opinon that its up to the citizens to support the
>>>> city.
>>>
>>> Earth to Arny...
>>> There IS NO CITY.
>>
>> Inablility to see a philosophical discussion for what it
>> is noted.
>>
>> However, it seems that the legal entity called New
>> Orleans still exists, at least in the mind of its mayor.
>>
>>>> This isn't about withholding relief from the needy. Its
>>>> about holding people responsbile for their actions
>>>> regardless of their color.
>>
>>> How about holding the so-called leader of the free world
>>> responsible for his inaction, regardless of how much
>>> money his daddy has?
>>
>> Good idea. How about holding the mayor of New Orleans
>> responsbility for his inactions as well?
>
> As I've said many times.....
>
> Once the power, phones, highways and bridges were out and
> the place was flooded he was essentially powerless.

That's why I'm suggesting that he be held responsible for
what happened before then.

We've got him on the public record telling people to get out
on Saturday when power, phones, highways and bridges were
are perfectly operational. This is about how he told people
to get out.

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
> in message news:431C34F8.13BB8AAF@hotmail.com
> > Arny Krueger wrote:
> >
> >> "Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com>
> >> wrote in message news:431BB7BF.413A477E@hotmail.com
> >>> Chris Hornbeck wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
> >>>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put
> >>>>>> forth the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his
> >>>>>> disposal to evacuate citizens with transportation
> >>>>>> problems.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
> >>>>
> >>>> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
> >>>> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
> >>>>
> >>>> It could have been done, but it wasn't. Heads
> >>>> should roll, but won't. You really have no idea
> >>>> how much shuckin' and divin' are the new American
> >>>> politic.
> >>>>
> >>>> Absolutely *nothing* is too hard to sell to true
> >>>> believers.
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris Hornbeck
> >>>
> >>> Is the typical National Guard trooper capable /
> >>> qualified to drive a bus ?
> >>
> >> You haven't explained why the licenced bus driver in New
> >> Orleans couldn't be asked to do their jobs. The
> >> evacuration was supposed to be done before the hurricane
> >> showed up, remember?
> >
> > No. The evacuation was a last minute thing. If you did it
> > earlier you might evacuate ppl *into its path*. The
> > landfall of a hurricane is not reliably predictabe to
> > that degree.
>
> Evacuation plans are generally a one-size fits all disasters
> kind of thing. They are made well in advances, such as the
> ones I documented for Los Angeles in another post.

No good for a hurricane. You need flexible plans.

Graham

 

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Arny Krueger wrote:

> It is well known and generally accepted that it will take
> 3-5 days for a significant national response to a serious
> disaster to be implemented.

In which case the USA is simply incompetent.


Graham

 

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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431C3AC2.A5C45A41@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> It is well known and generally accepted that it will take
>> 3-5 days for a significant national response to a serious
>> disaster to be implemented.

> In which case the USA is simply incompetent.

Prove it using recent disasters as examples, bearing in mind
the geographic and human size of the entities involved and
the nature of the disaster.

For example, a Tsunami is also a flood, but it drains away
by itself. For example, many countries were affected by the
Tsunami, but most of them are about the same size or smaller
than just one or two states in the US.

I suspect that one byproduct of the New Orleans disaster is
that serious efforts are going to be made to cut down on
response time and improve disaster planning. But that will
take years.

 

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normanstrong@comcast.net wrote:
> Bush is not particularly good in emergencies. He seems like a deer caught
> in headlights. Eventually, he gets his act together, but I sure wouldn't
> want to rely on him for guidance during an emergency situation.
>
>


Emergencies are really the main priority of the President. "Commander in
Chief". Someone the country can look up to and feel comfort from in
times of crises.

Besides, what exactly is it that Bush is good at?

 

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WillStG wrote:

> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>>Good idea. How about holding the mayor of New Orleans
>>responsbility for his inactions as well?
>
>
> This is a discussion I have been suggesting we can all leave for
> later Arny. The Mayor still has an important role to play in the
> recovery effort, everyone does. There are times when politics or even
> ordinary criticism serves no useful purpose; I would suggest this is
> such an extraordinary time.

Save the bullshit Miho. This one is a big loser and you know it. So best
to just not talk about it, huh?

Bush's incompetence has finally reached astronomical levels so high as
to leave even the uninformed and delusional no choice but to finally GET
IT!

http/news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20050905/ap_on_re_us/hurricane_katrina_27

> The Times-Picayune, Louisiana's largest newspaper, published an open letter to Bush, called for the firing of every official at the
> Federal Emergency Management Agency.
>
> "We're angry, Mr. President, and we'll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry," the editorial said.. "Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That's to the government's shame."
>
> "Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially," the letter said. "No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced."

 

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On 9/5/05 1:52 AM, in article 1h2dxtc.10roti1anydbsN%walkinay@thegrid.net,
"hank alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:

>> Why is the director of FEMA/Homeland Security spending
>> alll day on talking head shows and not picking up a bucket to bail?
>
> Because he has no previous experience in disastrous emergency
> management.


HANK...
You;re mistaken..
He's BRILLIANT at disastrous emergency management!

 

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<normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote in message news:U_GdnYl7Eual74HeRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> Bush is not particularly good in emergencies. He seems like a deer caught
> in headlights. Eventually, he gets his act together, but I sure wouldn't
> want to rely on him for guidance during an emergency situation.


He was supposed to have appointed all the right people for all of
the right tasks, and divided the right responsibilities among the right
people. If the country doesn't now see that his'right' is so very, very,
wrong, we have a bigger problem than just leadership.