I can't believe...

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Now that Texas is requestiong help from other states ...

If Roger's offer is sincere I would have to agree with him at this point.
People are going to Minn, Mass, etc..

Roger.. if your politics aren't in the right place your heart surely is.

I gave to the Red Cross.. I mentioned guests to my wife.. She reminded me we
have only 1 bathroom and most of the rest of the house under some sort of
rennovation.. But I am certainly not adverse to making the same offer if I
can figure out how to do it.
 
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Fine dude. I have been under renovations here for most of last year and
this year too, but I not only made the offer, I am working on doing
something about it. I have the roofing crew coming over Tuesday to fix the
NEW 50 YEAR roof they just put on. I will have to pay the final payment of
$5680 to do so. For me to make the offer I made is going probably going to
cost my wife and I $20,000. One cannot offer that type of commitment
without meaning it. I have reservations, like I don't want known junkies in
the house, etc., but I don't believe that is unreasonable. It might seem
heartless under the circumstances, but I shouldn't have to subject my family
to such people just because I want to help. Then again, who knows? I may
find that any reasonable person in a reasonable situation can rise above the
conditions of their normal lives. Certainly no one's normal life includes
death, destruction, feces in the streets along with dead bodies and cemetary
corpses. Who knows? I don't. And I'm not going to claim that I don't do
drugs. I will say that I just haven't been able to get any for the past 18
years, so probably that means I don't do drugs. But it also means I know
the consequences of dealing with people that have drug problems.

You have to remember, you brought up the bullshit. I said it's necessary
for Americans to help Americans. 400 evacuees are supposed to be coming in
within the next few days to the DC Armory, but the red tape seems pretty
hard to cut. I don't know why. It seems to me that the government should
be more than willing to allow anyone to help that wants, but right now it is
not the circumstance.

And btw, I appreciate you're noticing that the problem might well
incorporate what I was suggesting. I don't have to have an argument with
you on politics as long as these people have a home, a place to shower and
eat, and a means to get their lives back together. Whether I'm going to be
allowed to do that for someone or some family, I don't know. But the offer
was real, the ideals real, and the bullshit ends here.

When I pointed you to my blog, regardless of what you perceived as anti-Bush
stuff, the idea was that people who have lost EVERYTHING means that they
have NOTHING. Some of that nothing means they don't even have the people
they married and chose to spend their lives with, or children, and no parent
should outlive their child, or simply not knowing what happened to everyone
else in their families. A stabile home means some place to begin to live
life again, rather than living a single day. If we can't open up our hearts
that much then this is indeed NOT the America I grew up in. And it's
apparent that America needs to stand up and take notice by giving a hand,
and that doesn't mean money. What use is money when there is no where to
buy food, no water to drink, no telephones to call family members, no way to
cook?

No, I like my idea better and it's sincere, and it's real, and I'm hoping
that I can help provide some hope for someone or some family. My studio is
only 630 sq feet, but it can hold a family of four if I move/sell my
equipment and move my sleep sofa down from upstairs (there's already a
fouton in the studio - long story). I only have two bathrooms, one with a
shower, and it would be a major hardship for us to increase our empty nest
home of two into a house of 6 but it could be done. Whether it will be done
is up to the government and my wife. And I've seen her tears too. This is
going to be hard on all of us for a couple of years at the least.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Jona Vark" <noemail@all.com> wrote in message
news:X_HSe.238$eQ7.156@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Now that Texas is requestiong help from other states ...
>
> If Roger's offer is sincere I would have to agree with him at this point.
> People are going to Minn, Mass, etc..
>
> Roger.. if your politics aren't in the right place your heart surely is.
>
> I gave to the Red Cross.. I mentioned guests to my wife.. She reminded me
we
> have only 1 bathroom and most of the rest of the house under some sort of
> rennovation.. But I am certainly not adverse to making the same offer if I
> can figure out how to do it.
>
>
>
>
 
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Oh, and let me specify some of the red tape that one might go through in
order to try to help on this.

First, there are local codes if you own a single family dwelling. That
means single family housing. To have two families in the same house is a no
no. My adjacent neighbors, who just happen to be hispanic, for about 3
years had about 15 people living there. I don't know how, it's a smaller
house than mine. Ultimately the county split them up and I'm told it was
due to the number of cars registered there (and yes, there were a number of
cars there). Still, a specific number of bedrooms means a set number of
occupants (Montgomery County, Md) and all of the same family (I assume the
hispanics got away with all having the same last name, but maybe that could
be viewed as a racist observation).

What this means is that having a second family in a house designated as a
single family home is a problem. Locally this would need to be suspended in
order to be legal in Montgomer County, Md.

Secondly, with the passage of the Patriot Act, there are problems with
having a number of different named individuals having ID from the same
house, which is somewhat like what the county requirements are. The point
being that since there are sections of the Patriot Act that talk about
single identities, having two surnames in the same house would bring
suspicion upon that house, even were they legal, and it's also to dissuade
co-mingling of families, related or not.

Now it's a fact that there is a One ID portion of the Patriot Act (NOT the
National ID initiative) that says any individual may only have one
identification, and this goes towards one applying for an ID from Maryland
if they have and ID from Mississipi, for example. In order for them to get
an ID from Maryland they have to have an agency in Mississippi for Maryland
to send the ID back to. Now if they CAN do so, and then can return to
Mississippi in four months, there will have been no agency to receive the
returned ID, and they will not be allowed to turn in their Maryland ID for a
new Mississippi ID. Without the National ID database being in place for
Mississippi for a few months, it would kick back onto Maryland. And without
Maryland being able to check the National ID database with Mississippi,
there will be no new ID for the person displaced to Maryland. In other
words, we've hit the proverbial Catch-22. This also assumes that things
won't be back to normal in four months. And I have to say that nothing will
be the same as before last week in four months.

So the federal government, in it's efforts to fight terrorism, has made ANY
people displaced by a natural disaster subject to their "involuntery
incarceration" and subject solely to the federal government. People without
any states to call home. The people can't go anywhere that the federal
government doesn't allow, and they can't go outside of what the federal
government specifies as identifiable. Since they can't get new ID, and
their old ID isn't necessarily verifiable, all the people under federal
jurisdiction at this point are simply in limbo. How that turns out I don't
know. What it means unless certain laws and local codes are suspended for
the duration is questionable, but the federal government isn't going to give
up on the idea of One ID.

One of the last things I would want happening to my family because of the
federal government's stupid ideas is to have it subjected to federal
searches without warrants on unfounded suspicions just because I wanted to
help a family out of the problems they face. The possibility? Maybe small,
I don't know. But if only the federal government is in charge of SOME of
the people, then it's questionable what they could do, given what we know
the federal government is capable of doing.

If things change in the near term, I'll let you know. But unless I'm wrong,
these people are going to be in governmental limbo for a long time.

However, there's nothing in either local or state or federal laws that says
one can't have guests in their homes for however long they wish. They just
can't get new ID so they can get jobs without the ability to file taxes in
those states.

This is all my interpretation of the laws based on my conversations with
local and federal authorities and it would be nice to hear from a lawyer,
particularly one that has federal law as a background. I'd even accept
Judge Roberts' suggestions, and since he lives right over in Bethesda, maybe
I'll give him a call. But this is the best I can determine from what I've
run up against.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Jona Vark" <noemail@all.com> wrote in message
news:X_HSe.238$eQ7.156@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
> Now that Texas is requestiong help from other states ...
>
> If Roger's offer is sincere I would have to agree with him at this point.
> People are going to Minn, Mass, etc..
>
> Roger.. if your politics aren't in the right place your heart surely is.
>
> I gave to the Red Cross.. I mentioned guests to my wife.. She reminded me
we
> have only 1 bathroom and most of the rest of the house under some sort of
> rennovation.. But I am certainly not adverse to making the same offer if I
> can figure out how to do it.
>
>
>
>
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
message news:xa2dnW-pEtPZ0IbeRVn-oA@rcn.net

> I don't believe anyone can blame either the Mayor of New
> Orleans or the Governor of Louisiana because they made
> numerous calls for federal aid from Tuesday on.

Nice job Roger of changing the subject away from the fact
that the Mayor of New Orleans had a goodly number of
powerful resources at his disposal that could have made a
difference and saved lives.

The Mayor of New Orleans knew well before the storm that
about 100,000 people lacked private transportation to
evacuate. He had at least 400 regional busses, and probably
an equal number of school busses at his disposal.

At 60 people per bus, that's 48,000 seats going out of town
that ended up rotting in the flood waters.
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

> The Mayor of New Orleans knew well before the storm that
> about 100,000 people lacked private transportation to
> evacuate. He had at least 400 regional busses, and probably
> an equal number of school busses at his disposal.

Do you suppose his drivers were waiting by their phones for
serial phone calls to come? _That_ is clearly the job of
people charged with response who are not embedded in it.
When did their calls come?

Arny, I've long supported your technical points of view but
with regard to this situation, you are just wrong. A panic
ensued when the magnitude of what was coming became clear.
Organization and discipline were simply impossible. For you
to expect that in retrospect is unbelievable.

Panic is not a logical response, it is old brain survival.
To blame people with _everything_ at very imminent risk for
succoming to it is heartless.



Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Just as a bright point, WPFW all weekend has been working as a
non-governmental touchpoint for organising local resources af housing (they
have a group with at least one building with available space and a call for
carpenters to work it into living space gratis) and other resources in DC
 
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Cool. Thanks John. I'm not sure they will get governmental approval, but
you know if I move stuff out of the studio I have enough space for some
people. Still, Bev is concerned, both about the evacuees, but about our
home too.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"SSJVCmag" <ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com> wrote in message
news:BF40C4ED.1079D%ten@nozirev.gamnocssj.com...
> Just as a bright point, WPFW all weekend has been working as a
> non-governmental touchpoint for organising local resources af housing
(they
> have a group with at least one building with available space and a call
for
> carpenters to work it into living space gratis) and other resources in DC
>
>
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
message news:KbadncnRCNBe3YbeRVn-2g@rcn.net
> I did. In fact, we should have 400 evacuees coming into
> the DC Armory tomorrow or Tuesday, but they only want
> money or food. I can do either, but that wasn't my
> point, as has been exhibited by the hijacking of my
> original post. The idea was that we, as Americans,
> should be able to offer MORE, like a real place to live,
> a real place to try to gain work to rebuild lives, a real
> place to take a shower or put a child to bed, or give
> them something they can hold on to.


Texas has absorbed about 250,000 evacuees. Even Detroit has
taken on 3,000 evacuees.
 
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I specifically said that those of the PD and the FD would largely honor
their committments, but once an evacuation is ordered, it really applies to
everyone. I'm not picking on anyone here. Those that chose to serve above
and beyond did so. Those that didn't may well have had ulterior motives.
Unless I'm in their shoes I won't worry about the judgement call they made.

And not only was it Graham's determinination, as I said the same. If you
move your own out first and the city survives with thousands dead, you'd be
haunted by that fact. If you'd moved those others out instead, you'd still
be haunted. There IS NO WIN situation when the chips are down, Arny. I've
been in those no win situations and the fact that I'm here to talk about it
speaks to a lot of luck, because I wasn't going to allow anyone not to get
out alive. It didn't work for some of them. What that says about me is
moot. I didn't do my job. No matter how many came back, one left behind is
my nightmare (just had one this morning before I woke up).

Every one involved with this situation is going to feel the same way at some
point. It's inevitable. It's hard to take, it's hard to live with, it's
impossible to forget, but it's a fact of life for those that go in and try
to do the job. The only savior is the job. Maybe next time we'll get it
done. Maybe next time there won't be anyone missing or some life lost in
the last few minutes.

I don't know if you recall my talking about the troops that invaded Iraq,
but we have somewhat of the same situation here. Not that we are killing
people that don't need to be killed, but we aren't saving people that could
and should be saved. Not the fault of the troops. Not your fault or my
fault. But we must all feel the same because I'm sure it hurts each and
every one of us.

In a world that doesn't have direction, well, those that provide true
direction are saviours, and those that don't at least experienced the same
things. To ask the NOPD to be onsight when the rest were ordered to
evacuate seems infantile to complain about. I don't care where the order
came from, nor the actions that were taken in response.

As John Kerry said in his testimony to Congress in 1971, to be the last dead
person isn't a task we can ask anyone. OK, so I paraphrased. People will
die in extreme circumstances.

But do so many people have to die due to a lack of effort?

That's the question we all must ask.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:x_udnWulX_SyHobeRVn-jw@comcast.com...
> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:QKidnZM-DfvKzobeRVn-rg@rcn.net
>
> > No, Arny. That's not the way emergency management works.
>
> Agreed. I'm not talking about emergency *management* but
> instead emergency execution.
>
> > Those under an emegency shouldn't have to make the
> > decision to take their own first over others that might
> > be in as great or greater need, or vice versa.
>
> Tell that to Graham. It's his issue. He said that it was
> illogical to ask the New Orleans bus drivers to drive New
> Orleans citizens out of town.
>
> I probably should have pointed out that half of the NOPD
> stayed at their posts, therefore it might have been
> reasonable to expect half of the bus drivers to do their
> jobs.
>
>
>
 
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You think a city Mayor has power? You know A/B comparisons of audio but I'd
suggest that you lay off the political aspects of being a Mayor in the least
funded accident waiting to happen.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:VKGdnSIN0YY6GYbeRVn-ig@comcast.com...
> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:xa2dnW-pEtPZ0IbeRVn-oA@rcn.net
>
> > I don't believe anyone can blame either the Mayor of New
> > Orleans or the Governor of Louisiana because they made
> > numerous calls for federal aid from Tuesday on.
>
> Nice job Roger of changing the subject away from the fact
> that the Mayor of New Orleans had a goodly number of
> powerful resources at his disposal that could have made a
> difference and saved lives.
>
> The Mayor of New Orleans knew well before the storm that
> about 100,000 people lacked private transportation to
> evacuate. He had at least 400 regional busses, and probably
> an equal number of school busses at his disposal.
>
> At 60 people per bus, that's 48,000 seats going out of town
> that ended up rotting in the flood waters.
>
>
>
 
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> Texas has absorbed about 250,000 evacuees. Even Detroit has
> taken on 3,000 evacuees.

So what, you going to give me a hard time because my area has only accepted
400? It's not like it's up to me Arny.

And you'd better check your figures before you post them I don't believe
they are correct, but in the case of Detroit, it wouldn't surprise me at all
that a majority of 3,000 were black individuals being sent to a city that
can't even support it's own population. Doesn't suprise me at all. Let's
just add to the downtrodden's burden while most of white America doesn't
have to deal with the problem. Good move. In another two years, with bad
hurricanes to this administration's advantage, then we won't have to worry
about blacks at all., God willing.

I just don't know what I'm going to tell my wife. And I don't know why you
brought it up. You need to read my post about WHY people can't help support
these evacuees. I've done the research. Have you?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:9JednYXDQ7BnGYbeRVn-vw@comcast.com...
> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:KbadncnRCNBe3YbeRVn-2g@rcn.net
> > I did. In fact, we should have 400 evacuees coming into
> > the DC Armory tomorrow or Tuesday, but they only want
> > money or food. I can do either, but that wasn't my
> > point, as has been exhibited by the hijacking of my
> > original post. The idea was that we, as Americans,
> > should be able to offer MORE, like a real place to live,
> > a real place to try to gain work to rebuild lives, a real
> > place to take a shower or put a child to bed, or give
> > them something they can hold on to.
>
>
> Texas has absorbed about 250,000 evacuees. Even Detroit has
> taken on 3,000 evacuees.
>
>
 
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And you know something Arny. Do you know who are the poorest of the poor
and the richest in their culture, somewhat undiluted in the entire United
States? Well it's a little paid attention to section of Americans called
the Creoles. And part of my heritage comes from the Creoles and I'll bet
they aren't being considered at all in this "evacuation" of Louisana. Since
before New Orleans was the City/State it had become, the Creoles have been
there, pushed out of Canada, neglected in that little town, and ultimately
into a totally new environment and they have become the staunchest of
peoples in the United States. You won't fine any Coast Guard choppers going
into the swamps to find my family. Not one word has been spoken about the
possible deaths involved with the Creole people. Nobody cares. They are
outside of the norm for America and so can't be part of the death toll. No
one will go across to Algiers Landing and start from there, going into the
bayou. It won't happen. And in five years you'll suddenly find the Creole
far stronger than you ever thought because it would take more than a
category 4 hurricane to decimate them.

So when it comes down to some other state accepting evacuees, then let it be
known that the Creole have more than likely fared well. They may have their
stories, but they won't have lost their heritage.

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:9JednYXDQ7BnGYbeRVn-vw@comcast.com...
> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:KbadncnRCNBe3YbeRVn-2g@rcn.net
> > I did. In fact, we should have 400 evacuees coming into
> > the DC Armory tomorrow or Tuesday, but they only want
> > money or food. I can do either, but that wasn't my
> > point, as has been exhibited by the hijacking of my
> > original post. The idea was that we, as Americans,
> > should be able to offer MORE, like a real place to live,
> > a real place to try to gain work to rebuild lives, a real
> > place to take a shower or put a child to bed, or give
> > them something they can hold on to.
>
>
> Texas has absorbed about 250,000 evacuees. Even Detroit has
> taken on 3,000 evacuees.
>
>
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
message news:JY2dnagkld34FIbeRVn-tA@rcn.net

> But do so many people have to die due to a lack of effort?

Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth the
effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
message news:hp6dnRzIbIuXF4beRVn-1g@rcn.net

> You think a city Mayor has power?

Who is Rudy Guilani?

A mayor has at least enough power to control the use of
school busses and city busses.

A mayor has least enough power to ensure that the city arena
had enough water and food for 3-5 days until the *cavalry*
showed up.

In Detroit Coleman Young had enough power to nearly totally
ruin the regional water/sewer district by making political
appointments of incompetent administrators and engineers,
direct contracts to reliable sources of graft, etc.
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
message news:spqdnc-2e7ZjFobeRVn-2Q@rcn.net
>> Texas has absorbed about 250,000 evacuees. Even Detroit
>> has taken on 3,000 evacuees.
>
> So what, you going to give me a hard time because my area
> has only accepted 400? It's not like it's up to me Arny.

The 400 evacuees are your issue.

> And you'd better check your figures before you post them
> I don't believe they are correct, but in the case of
> Detroit, it wouldn't surprise me at all that a majority
> of 3,000 were black individuals being sent to a city that
> can't even support it's own population.

That would be one place where we differ, Roger. I'm of the
opinon that its up to the citizens to support the city.

> Doesn't suprise
> me at all. Let's just add to the downtrodden's burden
> while most of white America doesn't have to deal with the
> problem.

So the 10's of $Billions that are going into the relief and
reconstruction are not coming from white taxpayers?

It's my TV's fault that most of the national guard and
engineers I see giving aid look kinda caucasian. In fact
only soldiers of the african=american persuasian are serving
down there?

> Good move. In another two years, with bad
> hurricanes to this administration's advantage, then we
> won't have to worry about blacks at all., God willing.

OK Roger, so I'm not as african-american sympathetic and
engaged as you are Roger, because only my sister-in-law and
4 of my nieces and nephews are black? ;-)

> I just don't know what I'm going to tell my wife. And I
> don't know why you brought it up. You need to read my
> post about WHY people can't help support these evacuees.
> I've done the research. Have you?

This isn't about withholding relief from the needy. Its
about holding people responsbile for their actions
regardless of their color.
 
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Roger W. Norman wrote:
> You know A/B comparisons of audio but I'd

THAT is a matter of opinion.
 
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Bob Cain wrote:
> Panic is not a logical response, it is old brain survival. To blame
> people with _everything_ at very imminent risk for succoming to it is
> heartless.

Faced with a life or death situation, Krueger couldn't find his way out
of a paper bag.
 
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> In Detroit Coleman Young had enough power to nearly totally
> ruin the regional water/sewer district by making political
> appointments of incompetent administrators and engineers,
> direct contracts to reliable sources of graft, etc.

As does Bush. And didn't you just tell me that 3,000 people were being
bussed to Detroit?

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:uN2dnYOn1485AIbeRVn-1g@comcast.com...
> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:hp6dnRzIbIuXF4beRVn-1g@rcn.net
>
> > You think a city Mayor has power?
>
> Who is Rudy Guilani?
>
> A mayor has at least enough power to control the use of
> school busses and city busses.
>
> A mayor has least enough power to ensure that the city arena
> had enough water and food for 3-5 days until the *cavalry*
> showed up.
>
>
>
 
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On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:28:43 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:

> That would be one place where we differ, Roger. I'm of the opinon that its
> up to the citizens to support the city.

Earth to Arny...
There IS NO CITY.

> This isn't about withholding relief from the needy. Its about holding
> people responsbile for their actions regardless of their color.

How about holding the so-called leader of the free world responsible for
his inaction, regardless of how much money his daddy has?
 
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On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 18:44:13 -0700, Bob Cain wrote:

> Arny, I've long supported your technical points of view but with regard to
> this situation, you are just wrong.

Arny? Wrong?

Impossible!