I can't believe...

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Then again, there it is! <g>

--


Roger W. Norman
SirMusic Studio
http://blogs.salon.com/0004478/

"Agent 86" <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.09.05.02.05.52.626346@control.gov...
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 18:44:13 -0700, Bob Cain wrote:
>
> > Arny, I've long supported your technical points of view but with regard
to
> > this situation, you are just wrong.
>
> Arny? Wrong?
>
> Impossible!
>
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:QKidnZM-DfvKzobeRVn-rg@rcn.net
>
> > No, Arny. That's not the way emergency management works.
>
> Agreed. I'm not talking about emergency *management* but
> instead emergency execution.
>
> > Those under an emegency shouldn't have to make the
> > decision to take their own first over others that might
> > be in as great or greater need, or vice versa.
>
> Tell that to Graham. It's his issue. He said that it was
> illogical to ask the New Orleans bus drivers to drive New
> Orleans citizens out of town.
>
> I probably should have pointed out that half of the NOPD
> stayed at their posts, therefore it might have been
> reasonable to expect half of the bus drivers to do their
> jobs.

It would indeed make sense - *if* they were designated as emergency
workers.

I'd expect that to merit some financial incentive for starters. And then
of course - how do the bus drivers get their own families out of the
city if they're at work ?

All of this requires proper planning. Planning was absent at *all*
levels it seems.

The final bucjk stops at the boss's desk though. If even your federal
gov't can't get its act together then how do you expect anyone else to
be able to do better ?


Graham
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:JY2dnagkld34FIbeRVn-tA@rcn.net
>
> > But do so many people have to die due to a lack of effort?
>
> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth the
> effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
> evacuate citizens with transportation problems.

Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.

Graham
 
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On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth the
>> effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
>> evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
>
>Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.

The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.

It could have been done, but it wasn't. Heads
should roll, but won't. You really have no idea
how much shuckin' and divin' are the new American
politic.

Absolutely *nothing* is too hard to sell to true
believers.

Chris Hornbeck
 
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:

>>Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>
>
> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.

Yeah, but could they have been transported back from Iraq in time?
 
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Agent 86 wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:28:43 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:
>
> > That would be one place where we differ, Roger. I'm of the opinon that its
> > up to the citizens to support the city.
>
> Earth to Arny...
> There IS NO CITY.
>
> > This isn't about withholding relief from the needy. Its about holding
> > people responsbile for their actions regardless of their color.
>
> How about holding the so-called leader of the free world responsible for
> his inaction, regardless of how much money his daddy has?

Amen to that !

Who was it who said " the buck stops here " ?

Graham
 
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Chris Hornbeck wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth the
> >> effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
> >> evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
> >
> >Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>
> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
>
> It could have been done, but it wasn't. Heads
> should roll, but won't. You really have no idea
> how much shuckin' and divin' are the new American
> politic.
>
> Absolutely *nothing* is too hard to sell to true
> believers.
>
> Chris Hornbeck

Is the typical National Guard trooper capable / qualified to drive a bus
?

Graham
 
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On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 04:13:03 +0100, Pooh Bear
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Is the typical National Guard trooper capable / qualified to drive a bus
>?

Couldn't you or I drive a bus? I bet we'd figure it out.
And the National Guard is organized into units that
include transportation; it's a really big component
of fighting wars.

My point is that this could have been done, but
wasn't. And that nobody will care.

NOBODY will ever take any blame for this. *That's*
our current national situation.

Ain't pretty, and hasn't been for years.

And, Look Out the rest of the world, because
if it plays well on Broadway, you'll see it
*everywhere*.

God bless us, every one.

Chris Hornbeck
 
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Jebabical wrote:

> Roger W. Norman wrote:
> > You know A/B comparisons of audio but I'd
>
> THAT is a matter of opinion.

LOL !

Graham
 
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Jebabical wrote:

> Bob Cain wrote:
> > Panic is not a logical response, it is old brain survival. To blame
> > people with _everything_ at very imminent risk for succoming to it is
> > heartless.
>
> Faced with a life or death situation, Krueger couldn't find his way out
> of a paper bag.

But he could light a fire though !

Graham
 
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Jebabical wrote:

> Chris Hornbeck wrote:
>
> >>Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
> >
> >
> > The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
> > 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
>
> Yeah, but could they have been transported back from Iraq in time?

You wag ! How dare you impugn the creation of the American Empire !

Graham
 
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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431BAE92.90E57AE6@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
>> message news:JY2dnagkld34FIbeRVn-tA@rcn.net
>>
>>> But do so many people have to die due to a lack of
>>> effort?
>>
>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
>> evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
>
> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.

In the days before the hurricane when their services were
needed, they were no doubt in New Orleans.
 
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"Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in
message news:hnbnh1p08s0a5hkl3j3fesr1ha3ugthk8t@4ax.com
> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
>>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
>>> evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
>>
>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.

When New Orleans needed to be evacuated before the storm,
the bus drivers were presumably in New Orleans.

> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.

Would that be the Lousiana NG? There were no doubt at least
2,000 NG still in Lousiana,.

That shifts the blame to the governor of Lousiana.
 
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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431BB7BF.413A477E@hotmail.com
> Chris Hornbeck wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
>> <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
>>>> the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal
>>>> to evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
>>>
>>> Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>>
>> The 1000 bus drivers could easily have been composed of
>> 2000 National Guard troops, two per bus.
>>
>> It could have been done, but it wasn't. Heads
>> should roll, but won't. You really have no idea
>> how much shuckin' and divin' are the new American
>> politic.
>>
>> Absolutely *nothing* is too hard to sell to true
>> believers.
>>
>> Chris Hornbeck
>
> Is the typical National Guard trooper capable / qualified
> to drive a bus ?

You haven't explained why the licenced bus driver in New
Orleans couldn't be asked to do their jobs. The evacuration
was supposed to be done before the hurricane showed up,
remember?
 
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"Pooh Bear" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
in message news:431BAA29.746F8407@hotmail.com
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
>> message news:QKidnZM-DfvKzobeRVn-rg@rcn.net
>>
>>> No, Arny. That's not the way emergency management
>>> works.
>>
>> Agreed. I'm not talking about emergency *management* but
>> instead emergency execution.
>>
>>> Those under an emegency shouldn't have to make the
>>> decision to take their own first over others that might
>>> be in as great or greater need, or vice versa.
>>
>> Tell that to Graham. It's his issue. He said that it was
>> illogical to ask the New Orleans bus drivers to drive New
>> Orleans citizens out of town.
>>
>> I probably should have pointed out that half of the NOPD
>> stayed at their posts, therefore it might have been
>> reasonable to expect half of the bus drivers to do their
>> jobs.
>
> It would indeed make sense - *if* they were designated as
> emergency workers.

That's called preparedness.

> I'd expect that to merit some financial incentive for
> starters. And then of course - how do the bus drivers get
> their own families out of the city if they're at work ?

Asked and answered.

> All of this requires proper planning. Planning was absent
> at *all* levels it seems.

As I've shown you with examples from California and Los
Angeles, emergency planning is first and foremost the
responsibility of the state and the city.

Note that the Federal government has just offered to take
over running the rescue operations, and the local officials
have refused. In the US, local entities like cities and
states have considerable soveirgnity.

> The final bucjk stops at the boss's desk though. If even
> your federal gov't can't get its act together then how do
> you expect anyone else to be able to do better ?

If you haven't noticed, as promised (3-5 days after the
beginning of the disaster) the federal resources are on
site, taking care of business.
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
message news:3PadncoanrqsOobeRVn-vw@rcn.net

>> In Detroit Coleman Young had enough power to nearly
>> totally ruin the regional water/sewer district by making
>> political appointments of incompetent administrators and
>> engineers, direct contracts to reliable sources of
>> graft, etc.

> As does Bush.

I can tell I'm talking to someone who is very weak on
state's rights.

The federal governement just offered Lousiana the
opportunity to turn the whole thing over to the Federal
governemnt. They declined.

> And didn't you just tell me that 3,000
> people were being bussed to Detroit?

Did I say bussed?

The State of Michigan is also opening up a NG base with
barracks for people who are looking for a place to stay,
from the area.
 
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"Agent 86" <maxwellsmart@control.gov> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.09.05.01.41.13.709527@control.gov
> On Sun, 04 Sep 2005 21:28:43 -0400, Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> That would be one place where we differ, Roger. I'm of
>> the opinon that its up to the citizens to support the
>> city.
>
> Earth to Arny...
> There IS NO CITY.

Inablility to see a philosophical discussion for what it is
noted.

However, it seems that the legal entity called New Orleans
still exists, at least in the mind of its mayor.

>> This isn't about withholding relief from the needy. Its
>> about holding people responsbile for their actions
>> regardless of their color.

> How about holding the so-called leader of the free world
> responsible for his inaction, regardless of how much
> money his daddy has?

Good idea. How about holding the mayor of New Orleans
responsbility for his inactions as well?
 
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Roger W. Norman wrote:
> Well, you succumbed to the diatribes promoted by Jona, of whom at least one
> has suggested was you in disguise.
>

I haven't succumbed to anything. My natural inclination is I am a
tell-it-like-is / call-it-like-I-see-it Scorpio who does not suffer
fools gladly. And I have never discriminated in that regard, everyone
regardless of political or other affiliation would get the brunt of my
youthful blunt opinionations of their competence or shortcomings.

But have I learned that there are times in life when my critical
opinions of others just makes accomplishing anything constructive _more
difficult_. But as I have often said, I think Bono has accomplished
more by putting politics aside than anyone has who thinks politicizing
human tragedy serves a good purpose. If you really care about people
you need to go with what actually works.

> Roger > I only offered an alternative to government involvement with the housing of
> evacuees. You have a better idea? Express it. I notice you didn't answer
> my original post. Perhaps you have no suggestions?
>
> In the words of the Jefferson Parish President, "Nobody is coming to get
> you". I don't need more than that to say that Americans need to do
> something different than they did after 9/11 and offer money. We need to
> HOUSE 100s of thousands of people, not wareHOUSE them.
>
> How Jona or whomever hijacked my original post to become another political
> battle is beyond me, but believe me, there is no battle because anyone
> supposing that they have a leg to stand on by supporting this President's
> reactions to Katrina's devastation is simply irreconcillable in the face of
> the facts.

Helping people is good. Blaming people during a crisis when
everyone actually *wants to help* is not neccessary, there is
definitely a better way to "apply pressure", as one of your boys put
it. Example is a powerful thing, especially when everyone shares the
same goal, to help people. People have consciences and especially in
these circumstances, when they judge *themselves* by the better
examples of others, you will get a lot more done than you will by
attacking anyone. And save a lot of energy that could be better used.

It this a "religious approach" to a political problem as Hank
would claim? Well however you look at it I think "the human
conscience" when free to express itself is the only thing with the
power to truly transform society. And I beleive eventually political
"pressure" or "force" is not the path to lasting change, and only
perpetuates the political "cycle of violence." Freedom, love, unity,
forgiveness. Get it done.

Will Miho
NY Music and TV/Audio Post Guy
"The large print giveth and the small print taketh away..." Tom Waits
 
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"Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
message news:ca6dnWrC2fyNAIXeRVn-hg@rcn.net

> Can anyone imagine what toll it would take if New York
> had to be evacuated?

In fact 500,000 or more were evacuated from Manhattan on
9/11. On a normal workday there are 2.2 million commuters in
New York.
 
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Bush is not particularly good in emergencies. He seems like a deer caught
in headlights. Eventually, he gets his act together, but I sure wouldn't
want to rely on him for guidance during an emergency situation.