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SSJVCmag wrote:

> "hank alrich" wrote:

> >> Why is the director of FEMA/Homeland Security spending
> >> alll day on talking head shows and not picking up a bucket to bail?

> > Because he has no previous experience in disastrous emergency
> > management.

> HANK...
> You;re mistaken..
> He's BRILLIANT at disastrous emergency management!

Sir, you are correct. What was I thinking?

--
ha
 
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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message ...

> His career was installing TV cable systems, Before becoming
> Mayor, Mr Nagin served as the vice president and general
> manager for Cox Communications in south-east Louisiana.

But he knows *all about* gambling and the $500,000 per day that
casino's put into the state coffers by way of taxes. That revenue
is now as totally gone as is the city itself. This is more grim than
you are imagining around here folks... 9/11 pales in comparison.
 
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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:p5qdnfvqe6JY24HeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> message news:ca6dnWrC2fyNAIXeRVn-hg@rcn.net
>
> > Can anyone imagine what toll it would take if New York
> > had to be evacuated?
>
> In fact 500,000 or more were evacuated from Manhattan on
> 9/11. On a normal workday there are 2.2 million commuters in
> New York.


But they had a city to return to, didn't they?
 
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
message news:uI0Te.12739$IT4.10269@trnddc04

> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:p5qdnfvqe6JY24HeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
>> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
>> message news:ca6dnWrC2fyNAIXeRVn-hg@rcn.net
>>
>>> Can anyone imagine what toll it would take if New York
>>> had to be evacuated?
>>
>> In fact 500,000 or more were evacuated from Manhattan on
>> 9/11. On a normal workday there are 2.2 million
>> commuters in New York.
>
>
> But they had a city to return to, didn't they?

Different problem.
 
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On 9/5/05 3:02 PM, in article XC0Te.12737$IT4.1909@trnddc04, "David Morgan
(MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote:

>
> <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:U_GdnYl7Eual74HeRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>> Bush is not particularly good in emergencies. He seems like a deer caught
>> in headlights. Eventually, he gets his act together, but I sure wouldn't
>> want to rely on him for guidance during an emergency situation.
>
>
> He was supposed to have appointed all the right people for all of
> the right tasks, and divided the right responsibilities among the right
> people. If the country doesn't now see that his'right' is so very, very,
> wrong, we have a bigger problem than just leadership.


You missed the last election, didn't you?


>
 
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"Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3o3kn5F42htbU1@individual.net...
> normanstrong@comcast.net wrote:
> > Bush is not particularly good in emergencies. He seems like a deer caught
> > in headlights. Eventually, he gets his act together, but I sure wouldn't
> > want to rely on him for guidance during an emergency situation.
> >
> >
>
>
> Emergencies are really the main priority of the President. "Commander in
> Chief". Someone the country can look up to and feel comfort from in
> times of crises.
>
> Besides, what exactly is it that Bush is good at?

Check the records.... failing in business is his forte'.
 
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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:h_udnU_1zf81AIHeRVn-pg@comcast.com...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> message news:uI0Te.12739$IT4.10269@trnddc04
>
> > "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> > news:p5qdnfvqe6JY24HeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
> >> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
> >> message news:ca6dnWrC2fyNAIXeRVn-hg@rcn.net
> >>
> >>> Can anyone imagine what toll it would take if New York
> >>> had to be evacuated?
> >>
> >> In fact 500,000 or more were evacuated from Manhattan on
> >> 9/11. On a normal workday there are 2.2 million
> >> commuters in New York.
> >
> >
> > But they had a city to return to, didn't they?
>
> Different problem.


They really never got them out. The bridges were closed before the
evac was complete, no? Then, they were only a mile or so from food
and water and no "aftermath" on the environment. Basically, you are
trying to compare the disaster of a two-block radius, to the destruction
of an entire coast line and the loss of an entire major city. There is no
comparison. New York (albeit horrible) on 9/11 can't hold a candle to
the impact on society that is occuring here.
 
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
message news:kf1Te.13148$B34.7161@trnddc09
> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
> news:h_udnU_1zf81AIHeRVn-pg@comcast.com...
>> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
>> message news:uI0Te.12739$IT4.10269@trnddc04
>>
>>> "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message
>>> news:p5qdnfvqe6JY24HeRVn-rg@comcast.com...
>>>> "Roger W. Norman" <Roger@SirMusicStudio.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:ca6dnWrC2fyNAIXeRVn-hg@rcn.net
>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone imagine what toll it would take if New York
>>>>> had to be evacuated?
>>>>
>>>> In fact 500,000 or more were evacuated from Manhattan
>>>> on 9/11. On a normal workday there are 2.2 million
>>>> commuters in New York.
>>>
>>>
>>> But they had a city to return to, didn't they?
>>
>> Different problem.

Namely resettlement.

> They really never got them out.

Really?

>The bridges were closed before the evac was complete, no?

No that I know of. Outbound traffice was OK.

> Then, they were only a mile or so from food
> and water and no "aftermath" on the environment.

If you're in the WTC area, or down by Wall Street, its
probably a couple of mile walk to the other end of the
nearest bridge.

> Basically, you are
> trying to compare the disaster of a two-block radius, to
> the destruction
> of an entire coast line and the loss of an entire major
> city.

I've walked the WTC disaster area, and its a lot more than a
two block radius. The WTC itself is about 4 blocks by 4
blocks. If you take the disaster area to include the
buildings that had their exteriors cleaned, the disaster
area is about 10 blocks by 10 blocks. The actual area that
was cleared was far larger than that.

>There is no comparison.

Agreed, but I'm addressing a specific claim that evacuating
NY would have a toll in lives that would be somehow
comparable or greater.

> New York (albeit horrible) on 9/11 can't hold a candle to
> the impact on society that is occuring here.

Agreed! I was only addressing the evacuation, not the issues
related to resettlement or reconstruction.
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

> Speaking of previous relevant experience, let's talk about
> the Mayor of New Orleans.
>
> Zero previous experience in government, not even governor of
> Texas. ;-)
>
> His career was installing TV cable systems, Before becoming
> Mayor, Mr Nagin served as the vice president and general
> manager for Cox Communications in south-east Louisiana.

This is extremely common for Mayor's everywhere. Disaster
management is almost nowhere considered a requisite for that
office. This is exactly why such management must be dealt
with at a national level. There is no other way to get the
required uniform co-ordination and multi-state response.
The people under attack in such a situation are the last
people that should be expected to be managing the problem
for all kinds of obvious reasons.

I think most of us believed that the fed understood this and
were prepared for states coming under attack by at least
something this predictable with such a predictable scope.
The reality is a stunner. The fed is like an insurance
company in this regard. No state or locality can possibly
be liable for the specific disaster that can befall it. As
we see, events can be too big for that.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:
> "Chris Hornbeck" <chrishornbeckremovethis@att.net> wrote in
> message news:hnbnh1p08s0a5hkl3j3fesr1ha3ugthk8t@4ax.com
>
>>On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 03:33:54 +0100, Pooh Bear
>><rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>Good question to ask of a mayor who wouldn't put forth
>>>>the effort to use nearly 1,000 busses at his disposal to
>>>>evacuate citizens with transportation problems.
>>>
>>>Please consider where the 1000 bus drivers were.
>
>
> When New Orleans needed to be evacuated before the storm,
> the bus drivers were presumably in New Orleans.

Yeah, waiting by the phone for instructions. Give this one
up, Arny, it just doesn't work.

Continuing to propose an unrealistic solution makes you
eqivalent to those you criticize who had to actually
function under fire. A day or two may seem like a lot to
you in your placid situation but to those imbedded in the
crisis it is a blurry, chaotic moment.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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Pooh Bear wrote:

> Who was it who said " the buck stops here " ?

I think it was some obscure Democrat.


Bob
--

"Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
simpler."

A. Einstein
 
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"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:p7idnXhBi9h0OYHeRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
> "David Morgan (MAMS)" <mams@NOSPAm-a-m-s.com> wrote in
> message news:kf1Te.13148$B34.7161@trnddc09
> >There is no comparison.
>
> Agreed, but I'm addressing a specific claim that evacuating
> NY would have a toll in lives that would be somehow
> comparable or greater.
>
> > New York (albeit horrible) on 9/11 can't hold a candle to
> > the impact on society that is occuring here.
>
> Agreed! I was only addressing the evacuation, not the issues
> related to resettlement or reconstruction.

Or people starving, or people wallowing in feces and urine from no
facilities, or the deceased being thrown into alleys to rot, etc., etc..

The evacuation was pretty much a joke in NY because circumstances
were perfect - - and in NO, a near failure but under the absolute worst
of circumstances with no ability to turn back and destruction along the
escape routes. This is a bad scene that had been fully "war-gamed"
by FEMA less than two years ago... there is no excuse for this foot-
dragging to have occurred except at the highest levels of government.
 
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David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

> This is a bad scene that had been fully "war-gamed"
> by FEMA less than two years ago... there is no excuse for this foot-
> dragging to have occurred except at the highest levels of government.




> It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big
> Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as
> if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent
> homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV
> "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing
> surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in
> this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.
>
> But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the
> city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a
> million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained,
> however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those
> die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.
>
> The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead,
> pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept
> to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then
> spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea
> level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A
> liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over
> the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned
> porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and
> strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse.
> As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people
> climbed onto roofs to escape it.
>
> Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by
> sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood
> later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be
> rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big
> Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people
> were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural
> disaster in the history of the United States.
>
> When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the doomsday
> scenario is not far-fetched.
>
> National Geographic Magazine - October, 2004

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/
 
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> Science World, Oct 18, 2002 by Larry O'Hanlon
>
> The furious storm: one wild hurricane could drown a major American
> City. Can scientist prevent the disaster in time? - Earth science:
> marshlands/hurricanes
>
> Here's a tip from the experts: If you're in New Orleans when the "Big
> One" hits, have a lifeboat handy. Some scientist warn that the right
> hurricane--a tropical cyclone with at least 74-mile-per-hour
> winds--could strike the Gulf Coast in a way that would hurl millions
> of gallons of water to turn the city known as the Big Easy into the
> Big Soup Bowl (see map, next page).
>
> A major flood could submerge much of central New Orleans beneath 20
> feet of water, leaving many of the metropolitan area's 1.3 million
> residents clinging to rooftops--a prospect that has engineers and
> city planners scrambling for defensive strategies. "It's the luck of
> the draw," says hurricane expect Hugh Willoughby at the National
> Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NDAA). He thinks it's a
> matter of when--not if--the Big One will pound New Orleans During
> some annual hurricane season between June and November.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1590/is_3_59/ai_95845370
 
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"Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3o3otgF42s72U1@individual.net
> David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

>> This is a bad scene that had been fully "war-gamed"
>> by FEMA less than two years ago... there is no excuse
>> for this foot- dragging to have occurred except at the
>> highest levels of government.

>> It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans,
>> Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot.
>> Those who ventured outside moved as if they were
>> swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent
>> homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they
>> watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf
>> of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in
>> August are as much a part of life in this town as
>> hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

....and the president of the United States was begging the
New Orlean's Mayor to evacuate his city. The Mayor refused
again and again, but under continuing presidental pressure,
he finally relented at the last minute.

>> But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a
>> bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached
>> the coast, more than a million people evacuated to
>> higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the
>> car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those
>> die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw
>> a party.

This prediction was off by 100,000.

>> The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear
>> warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake
>> Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive
>> berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over.
>> Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea
>> level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water
>> poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick
>> ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of
>> the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the
>> Garden District, until it raced through the bars and
>> strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of
>> the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters)
>> over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to
>> escape it.

>> Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon
>> contaminated by sewage and industrial waste.

No reality check on this estimate, yet.

>> Thousands
>> more who survived the flood later perished from
>> dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It
>> took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the
>> Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment,
>> a million people were homeless,

A million homeless in a city with a population of 500,000?

Neat trick, if you can get anybody with a brain to believe
it.

>> and 50,000 were dead. It
>> was the worst natural disaster in the history of the
>> United States.

It's no doubt the worst natural disaster in the history of
the United States.

>> When did this calamity happen? It hasn't—yet. But the
>> doomsday scenario is not far-fetched.

It's off by 100% in several places that we know about for
sure.

The rest of it? Well, lets hope not.

> http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

> A million homeless in a city with a population of 500,000?
>
> Neat trick, if you can get anybody with a brain to believe
> it.

Well anyone with a brain (apparently not you) would get that 500,000 is
in the city itself. The metro area has (had) between 1 and 2 million.

Mr. brainiac.
 
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"Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3o413fF4262dU1@individual.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> A million homeless in a city with a population of
>> 500,000? Neat trick, if you can get anybody with a brain
>> to
>> believe it.
>
> Well anyone with a brain (apparently not you) would get
> that 500,000 is in the city itself. The metro area has
> (had) between 1 and 2 million.

You do an energetic but highly inaccurate job of making up
numbers.

The NO metro area has a population of 1.3 million, which
still does not fit with the number of homeless stated in the
article.
 
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Arny Krueger wrote:

> "Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:3o413fF4262dU1@individual.net
>
>>Arny Krueger wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A million homeless in a city with a population of
>>>500,000? Neat trick, if you can get anybody with a brain
>>>to
>>>believe it.
>>
>>Well anyone with a brain (apparently not you) would get
>>that 500,000 is in the city itself. The metro area has
>>(had) between 1 and 2 million.
>
>
> You do an energetic but highly inaccurate job of making up
> numbers.
>
> The NO metro area has a population of 1.3 million, which
> still does not fit with the number of homeless stated in the
> article.

Huh? 1.3 million is not between 1 & 2 million? And the article was
written long before the event actually happened. So sue them for not
guessing the numbers exactly.

What exactly is your point?
 
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"Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:3o475oF45ndtU1@individual.net
> Arny Krueger wrote:
>
>> "Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:3o413fF4262dU1@individual.net
>>
>>> Arny Krueger wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> A million homeless in a city with a population of
>>>> 500,000? Neat trick, if you can get anybody with a
>>>> brain to
>>>> believe it.

>>> Well anyone with a brain (apparently not you) would get
>>> that 500,000 is in the city itself. The metro area has
>>> (had) between 1 and 2 million.

>> You do an energetic but highly inaccurate job of making
>> up numbers.
>>
>> The NO metro area has a population of 1.3 million, which
>> still does not fit with the number of homeless stated in
>> the article.
>
> Huh? 1.3 million is not between 1 & 2 million?

1 & 2 million are your numbers. Paint a big enough target
and you'll hit it.

But I didn't fall for your attempt to substitute numbers you
made up for what the article said.

>And the
> article was written long before the event actually
> happened.

Wrong again!

The article was published less than a year ago.

>So sue them for not guessing the numbers exactly.

It's fun watching you dissemble, "Jebabical"

> What exactly is your point?

You're making it up as you go along.
 
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"Jebabical" <jb@nospam.com> wrote in message news:3o3p09F42s72U2@individual.net...
> > Science World, Oct 18, 2002 by Larry O'Hanlon
> >
> > The furious storm: one wild hurricane could drown a major American
> > City. Can scientist prevent the disaster in time? - Earth science:
> > marshlands/hurricanes
> >
> > Here's a tip from the experts: If you're in New Orleans when the "Big
> > One" hits, have a lifeboat handy. Some scientist warn that the right
> > hurricane--a tropical cyclone with at least 74-mile-per-hour
> > winds--could strike the Gulf Coast in a way that would hurl millions
> > of gallons of water to turn the city known as the Big Easy into the
> > Big Soup Bowl (see map, next page).
> >
> > A major flood could submerge much of central New Orleans beneath 20
> > feet of water, leaving many of the metropolitan area's 1.3 million
> > residents clinging to rooftops--a prospect that has engineers and
> > city planners scrambling for defensive strategies. "It's the luck of
> > the draw," says hurricane expect Hugh Willoughby at the National
> > Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NDAA). He thinks it's a
> > matter of when--not if--the Big One will pound New Orleans During
> > some annual hurricane season between June and November.
>
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1590/is_3_59/ai_95845370


This apparent lack of preparedness and obvious failure to act is gross
in it's negligence. Only the local authorities and the Coast Guard could
have acted without direct orders from the CIC... and given the evidence
of the past several years of documentaries and reporting as above, there
is simply no excuse here. Not only were we forwarned, but rehearsed,
and still failed miserably due to lack of direction from the highest ranks
of government, both federal, state, and city. I have the utmost sympathy
for the city government... its hands were abundantly full.