Windows 10 and Windows XP network compatibility

Midi-Magic

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Forced by needs of two people to have Windows 10 and Windows XP on the same network. Both need to have internet access and share a printer.

How can I do this without problems between the two computers? The router is in an AT&T U-verse modem

Can files be shared on a network drive?

Does Windows 10 spy on files? I have heard rumors.

One person has been required by employer to upgrade to Windows 10.

The other person has music studio equipment, music software, and animation software that can't run on anything newer than XP. The resulting files are uploaded to a website.
 

ingtar33

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you are still running a windows xp pc and worried about windows 10? Windows xp is the biggest threat on your network considering it's basically been unpatched by microsoft for 3 years now. I wouldn't voluntarily put anything important on any network with a windows xp computer.

as to your question, I'd get a higher end router that allows you to set up multiple subnets, put the windows xp pc on it's own subnet and wall it off from the rest of the home/printers to protect them. this way the windows xp pc has internet, and everyone else can go without worrying about crypto/ransomware bugs that the windows xp pc will inevitably invite into your home. And no, i wouldn't share files or printers with the windows xp pc.
 

nukemaster

Distinguished
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Windows XP uses an old version of SMB(SMB1), but it should be able to talk to Windows 10 computers(file and print sharing).

This old version of SMB is however a security risk(and part of how some of these recent outbreaks have spread).

I would agree with above about trying to separate it. This would also make it unable to access the same network shares without some work however.
 

Midi-Magic

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But why is XP no longer supported? Because Microsoft wants me to buy Windows 10. Why can't we have compatibility?

Science labs can't even do 10-year studies anymore because they can't get identical replacement computers, software, or equipment required by the ceteris paribus rules. Any upgrade (or even an update) destroys the integrity of the experiment.

If I buy Windows 10, I have to replace the computer and all of the work I have already done is gone, because the equipment and software won't run on Windows 10 (or even Windows 7). There is not even a port for the equipment.

Nobody seems to care if a long-term project is totally destroyed by mandated upgrades so Microsoft can make more money.

 

USAFRet

Splendid
Moderator


Because Windows XP is over 15 years old. At some point, it no longer makes financial sense to devote resources to providing patches for it.
That point was 2014.

Wanting continued support for XP is no different than wanting support and patches for Win 2000, Win98, Win95, etc, etc, etc.
Additionally, hardware changes. Components sold today don't even fully support Win 7.

Run the XP instance isolated in a VirtualMachine. But don't run it on native hardware connected to the outside world.
 

The Paladin

Estimable
Herald
I am confused with your statements, you start with...

The other person has music studio equipment, music software, and animation software that can't run on anything newer than XP. The resulting files
are uploaded to a website.
then state...

But why is XP no longer supported? Because Microsoft wants me to buy Windows 10. Why can't we have compatibility?
Science labs can't even do 10-year studies anymore because they can't get identical replacement computers, software, or equipment required by the ceteris paribus rules. Any upgrade (or even an update) destroys the integrity of the experiment.

so is it a music system running off windows XP ?
or
your a scientist that has a 15 years old experiment that is using defunct software and hardware ?

in either case, reality is..

1. XP is a HUGE security risk on any network... do not let it be on a network its a massive liability
2. if your stuck with 15 year old hardware as a musician composer I would suggest getting new equipment, if your a scientist that is stuck in a 15 year old experiment loop. maybe it is time to compare your notes from 15 years ago and recreate the experiment with new hardware and technologies, it will probably be more accurately recreated anyways.

if you don't agree that is fine, it is just my opinion.... slap that xp box on a network and when you come back and ask about ransom ware.. you ill get " we all told you so"
 

BFG-9000

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To answer your original question, sharing the network with XP is the same procedure it has been since Windows Vista:

Leave the Homegroup if in one, as XP doesn't understand them
under Advanced Sharing Settings change from "Allow Windows to manage connections" to "Use user accounts" instead Under System-Computer Name make sure Workgroup name is the same on both

I assume the XP machine will be used to visit very few websites directly. Have the XP machine save the files to a network drive, then use the Win 10 machine to work with the files. BTW with the POSReady 2009 registry hack, the non-multimedia parts of XP will be updated until April 9, 2019. And so will definitions for MSE. But considering the last ever major web browser for XP has already been released (Firefox 52.3ESR this month), it will soon be advisable to stop using the internet with it at all.

I don't even want to think about the DPC latency issues from running audio applications in a VM. XP SP3 is king for audio as latency is <10us, while Vista and later are over 10x that thanks to all of the changes in the audio stack.
 

Midi-Magic

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It is a music system running off windows XP in my home studio.

I used to be a science laboratory engineer and programmer before I retired.

And YOU don't get it. Changing equipment means losing all of the work already done in both cases.

1. I have 13 year-old equipment because I am still working on the same project - a large composition. Until I retired, I was working on it in my spare time.

Getting new equipment means losing everything I have already recorded and all of the music files except the 2-track masters and CDs.

- The multitrack recorder sync MUST use the same exact device and software or sync between the live parts on tape and the MIDI parts are lost. The sync codes must be recorded on the sync track first, before any parts are recorded on either side. Then the MIDI parts must be composed before the live parts are recorded, so the musicians can play along with them. Newer devices can't read the sync codes this multitrack uses, because the stupid clowns have changed the standards in the meantime. Standards are not supposed to change.

- If I replace the multitrack, I can't read the already recorded tapes or sync them to the MIDI parts. And I have lost three of the musicians in the interim. Two died and one moved away. Fortunately their parts are complete - on the tapes.

- If I replace the sounders, I lose the voicings that came with those sounders. The instrument sounds will change in the middle of the piece.

- The software the sheet music and MIDI were composed on will not run on anything newer than XP. The company that made it was bought out by a competitor and the new versions of the software deliberately won't read the old files.

- The company that made the interface stopped making it because they could not have a new unit ready before Microsoft changed Windows again. Development and testing time was about 3 years. And real-time control hardware and software must be usually changed with each change in the OS so the timing is correct - prohibitively expensive for most musicians.

- New computers do not have the port used by the interface.

2. Scientific experiments are restricted by a strict rule - ceteris parabus - which means "all else being equal".

If any equipment or software used in controlling the experiment, collecting the data, or analyzing the results is replaced by equipment or software that is NOT IDENTICAL, the experiment IS FORCED TO END at that point.

The study is ruined unless a rigorous study proves that the replacement item handles the experiment and data in exactly the same way the original item handles it.

As long as MS-DOS and ISA/EISA buses were available and in use (this was true for 18 years), we had no problem. We were doing 15, 20, and 25 year studies. Replacement computers behaved the same as the originals. Upgrades to MS-DOS also did not affect control and data collection because the drivers came with the equipment, not the OS.

We had a crisis in 2001 when a university vice president made a decision and IT, without telling anyone in advance, came in over the weekend and replaced all of the computers on the entire campus so that everyone had the same exact computer (the decision). All of our science suddenly ended for several reasons:

- The scientific equipment was guaranteed to be accurate for 30 years.

- The ISA and EISA interface cards for controlling and reading the scientific equipment did not fit the device slots in the new computers. The IT people just left them on the desk next to the computer with a note "no longer compatible - get replacement equipment". So they expected our lab to come up with over $600000 just like that - assuming we could find equipment that works with Windows NT.

- We had MS-DOS 6.22/Windows 3.1 computers using MS-DOS or Windows 3.1 software that came with the equipment. The new computers had Windows NT 4.0. The software would not run on the new computers.

- We tried to run MS-DOS 6.2 and Windows 3.1 on the new computers. We actually got it to boot from a floppy disk and run Windows 3.1, but the timings of the few experiments that used only screen and mouse interface to the subject were wrong and it could not use the hard drives on the new computers to store data.

- We called the equipment manufacturers. They told us to use old computers, because the new computers were not compatible. They were working on the problem but they expected it to be two years before they had an interface and software for the new computers. One company stopped making computer-controlled equipment entirely because Microsoft kept changing operating systems too fast for them to keep up. They also could not have a new unit ready before Microsoft changed Windows again. Development and testing time fir scientific equipment was also about 3 years. And real-time control hardware and software must usually be changed with each change in the OS so the timing is correct.

I had the job of convincing the VP that his "improvement" ended all of our science, both because the new computer would not run the equipment (the over $600000 replacement cost seemed to convince him) and that many students and faculty would lose their course grades, dissertations, and published works. They sent back the computers they took away, but said they would not do maintenance on them. It became my job. I had to put everything back together.

I do not expect XP to totally lose support for many more years. There are too many people who can't just switch to new computers without going dead for long periods.

- The IRS database was written using now-discontinued software running on XP. Converting to another operating system and database software will take years and billions of dollars. The changeover must happen simultaneously everywhere, and will have months of bugs.

- Much military software is XP based, because XP stayed around long enough for hardware interfaces to appear. Some military equipment is still using 80386 processors and MS-DOS 5.0 because it can't ever change. All of this equipment must be identical and predictable. The Space Shuttle used these for the entire life after the Challenger disaster.

- Many many cash registers work on XP because the newer versions of Windows can't operate the hardware and won't fit in the RAM.

Microsoft did provide an XP update for rancidware.

 

USAFRet

Splendid
Moderator
Yeah, we get that. Some of us other people out here have actually been around longer than you might think.

We don't necessarily like the current situation either. And the 'current situation' has been the situation for 20+ years.

However, reality intrudes. Security updates for XP were discontinued 3 years ago.
Yes, they pushed out a specific one, only for that recent bout of ransomware. Why? Because a large swath of the planet was still clinging to XP, a lot of them either pirated or completely unpatched.
For that one instance, it was beneficial to MS to create that one patch.

That sort of push is unlikely to happen again.


And while you state "Much military software is XP based"....those systems are either completely offline, or behind 18 levels of firewall. Not a crappy uVerse router.
Yeah, I kinda do know about that stuff.

And the shuttle software has exactly squat to do with your music production software.

Your problem, as with almost all of us, is that we are relying on a closed source proprietary OS. MS can and does stop support for older OS's.
And on a scheduled that was published many years ago.

Maybe you should rail against your software vendors, for not creating a new version that is compatible with a modern OS. They share at least as much of the blame for your current situation.

Maybe now is the time for you to jump to a Linux based open source system. That way, you can pay someone for compatibility updates. Or code it yourself.

Yes, yes..I know that your particular special software stack is not Linux compatible.
Well...you're kinda stuck here.

No further updates for XP
POSReady apparently won't work for you.


You can put your Win 10 and Win XP systems on the same LAN, connected to the world if you want.
I wouldn't.

What is the requirement that XP talks to the outside world?
 

The Paladin

Estimable
Herald
And YOU don't get it. Changing equipment means losing all of the work already done in both cases.
I do understand, I have been dealing with hardware, operating systems and all the in between since CP/M was being used in this world.

Since we are looking at an impasse.

I have no further answer aside what was given
Your issue will be poorly answered on a genetic computer board, I suggest you search for answers with music professionals and find a way to keep your music tracks and be able to move forward and continue to make your composition with little to no possible change in type of sounds and instrument, and verbosity of your tracks.

good luck, I see only 2 solutions. finish the composition as is, or find someone that can prove to you, the upgrade is possible without change in sound.

 

Midi-Magic

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Other reasons I still need XP:

- Sending my files to my website. Windows 10 messes with them.

- They destroyed the Paint program in Vista and beyond, making it an artsy-crafty editor instead of a line and shape editor (using scientific primary colors) I need for explanatory web pages.

- I can't edit GIF animations for those same web pages with Vista and newer. They won't play.

- Windows 10 says that some of my files "have a virus" (I think a sneaky way to say they are deprecated). It won't let me upload them intact. Virus checkers say they are clean. But once they are on the website, they work fine when displayed by a browser.

I consider Windows 10 to be the malware. It messes up too much of my stuff. And the only real reason to upgrade is so Microsoft can grub more money by making the old stuff quit working.
 

USAFRet

Splendid
Moderator
1. No it doesn't.

2. Maybe use a different image editor? MS Paint was always a weak sister. There are many, many better, free ones.

3. There are only about a zillion GIF editors

4. What files, specifically? And what part of "Windows 10" is telling you this?

5. Money grubbing with Win 10? Well...it was a free upgrade, ya know. Well...if you have Win 7 or later.
 

13thmonkey

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Did you ever pay for any of the updates to XP? or any other OS once you had paid for the initial 'as is' license?

These updates are required as the world around MS had changed, hardware and the threat landscape, so all things out of MS's control.

If you didn't pay for them then MS, at MS's discretion at some point has to stop maintaining it, as it no longer makes financial sense to maintain it, it might be more expensive to fix and regression test than to start afresh with a new platform.

Continuing to use it creates risk, risk that you as a user have to manage, either by moving, or by taking other actions such as running it in a VM.
 

BFG-9000

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XP may no longer be under extended support, but Microsoft still offers custom support right now. It's around $200 per PC per year for only the current security updates so the price depends on what you need the PC to do, hence the "custom." For most people, using only the POSReady 2009 updates for free (which obviously exclude anything that's in XP but not in in that OS) is better than nothing because they don't want to pay. Especially if you only ever access one website from it and it's your own, the risk may be low enough to accept.

Many organizations pay for continued updates for XP and the US Navy alone has so far paid Microsoft $30,842,980 for custom support to keep Windows XP, Office 2003, Exchange 2003 and Windows Server 2003 up-to-date. It could be worse--our current Minuteman III ICBMs need to use 8-inch floppy disks to work.

Some folks will think of Microsoft as selling you an unfinished car and only fixing it to work later with updates, but let's compare it to another consumer device: If you bought a Dolby Surround receiver in 1982, would you be angry and demand free updates to the later Pro-Logic or Digital EX or TrueHD or Atmos? The old device still decodes Surround just like it ever did, but it's the world that has passed it by with newer standards, especially because Dolby subsidizes movie companies to use new standards, so that it can squeeze more money out of the consumer who has to buy new licensed receivers. That's how they make money. Likewise, XP is still working like it always did, but Windows has moved on to a different business model and if you want it to have new features such as the latest security, Microsoft gives you the option to pay for it. That's like Dolby letting you send in your old receiver to be upgraded.

Windows 10 is still free, because the free upgrade still works. That's because Windows is no longer considered the product, you are (just like broadcast TV). Microsoft has ads in the lock screen and even Windows Explorer now, and can use personal data collected from users (the advertising ID) to decide what ads to show and to convince advertisers to pay. Not even Google dared to do such things in Android, and they dropped their "Don't be evil" corporate motto years ago. Well those thousands of man-hours of labor to keep making updates has to be paid for somehow.

And there are plenty of modern-ish boards with ISA slots around for industrial use, although I have no idea if the bridge chip would cause DPC latency issues for audio or scientific applications--those are intended for machinery such as CNC machines running DOS/Win 3.11 from a CompactFlash card. Presumably if there were any gross timing issues though, millions of dollars worth of parts would have been damaged by now.
 

Midi-Magic

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"Run the XP instance isolated in a VirtualMachine. But don't run it on native hardware connected to the outside world."

This destroys the real-time nature of both of these special needs.

"if your a scientist that is stuck in a 15 year old experiment loop. maybe it is time to compare your notes from 15 years ago and recreate the experiment with new hardware and technologies, it will probably be more accurately recreated anyways."

If the purpose of the experiment is to look for minute changes over time, this idea totally destroys the ability to do that.

What is needed for both of these situations is a computing environment that NEVER CHANGES.

Computing today seems to be run by those who want to make mon4ey by changing everything. They don't care about long-term work.They want to make you replace everything.

I want a law that prohibits discontinuing software and support so people can do long-term work without disruption. They require car manufacturers to provide parts for 20 years., This is the same.

The changes they require in computers is the equivalent to changing the roads every 3 years so older cars can't be driven on them.

I have a 1961 Collaro Conquest record changer. It still works, and I can still buy records (new) to play on it. Computing should be just a durable.
 

13thmonkey

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Parts are different to support, parts you place an order, stick them in a warehouse, or get your OEM to keep making them at 20/month.

Support requires employing large numbers of people on a continuous basis to ensure it is safe against threats not yet known, as although people might be told it is not safe, they will carry on using it, they will blame MS, it is therefore a fiduciary responsibility of MS to pull that software.

I'd suggest if real time and over that period of time is your concern then don't use PC's use the types of control systems that manufacturing industry uses, and use the PC to store and analyse after the fact, but not to control, in this was you can regression test the analysis when updates are made.
 

USAFRet

Splendid
Moderator
The auto industry is far more mature than the PC industry. Not even close to comparable.

What you're asking for is a law to force car makers to retrofit your '68 Chevy with GPS and a rearview camera, or your '61 Collaro record changer with bluetooth.

Nothing is preventing you from continuing to run your XP system. Just don't connect it to the outside world. Unless you want your research totally invalidated by the next virus that comes along.

Have the XP box do whatever it does, and output the results to some other system.

And changing the OS and not supporting old ones is nowhere near "changing the roads every 3 years so older cars can't be driven on them". It is more like discontinuing leaded gas, so that older engines no longer run correctly.
Oh yeah...we did that.

New vulnerabilities are discovered all the time. Even in older software. The complexity of an OS, and major applications, makes it literally impossible to make it 100% impervious to current and all future threats, at a reasonable price.
Hence, ongoing updates. And at some point, it is no longer financially viable to do that for ALL previous versions.

Use your XP system offline. or, go with an open source solution. There, you personally can pay for whatever security updates are needed next week, next year, next decade.


"I want a law that prohibits discontinuing software and support so people can do long-term work without disruption. "
You chose the wrong platform at the start.
 

Midi-Magic

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NO! This is entirely wrong. Ceteris Parabus requires NO changes to the computer. No updates or upgrades. The computer must STAY the way it was when the experiment started. Changing the computer destroys the integrity of the work. The '57 Chevy must remain a stock '57 Chevy and the roads must never change. If they change the roads, all of the trips I ever took in the '57 Chevy never happened.

And changing the OS and not supporting old ones is nowhere near "changing the roads every 3 years so older cars can't be driven on them". It is more like discontinuing leaded gas, so that older engines no longer run correctly.
It is exactly that (changing the roads every three years) when real-time response and latency can affect the results of the work. You are used to business applications where changes in the speed or latency do not affect the results. EVERY time they change the operating system, we have to start over. The software doesn't keep time properly when Microsoft changes Windows.

This was not a problem when MS-DOS was the operating system. The driver for the scientific and production equipment was provided by the equipment manufacturer, not Microsoft. The driver adjusted itself to the system timing in the computer it was running in. There was very little OS overhead, and we could get reliable data collection rates of 1000 Hz and reliable RMW (read-modify-write) rates of 500 Hz. RMW is where the data shows a process needs adjustment to stay within parameters and a control signal is sent to the experiment controls. And software updates did not affect the experiment because they did not change system timing or the driver.

When Windows 3.1 appeared, all we had to do to use this was reboot after someone had started Windows to recover the DOS timing for a DOS collection. If Windows 3.1 had been run, the timings because quite erratic because Windows was stealing time for itself.

Software running under Windows 3.1 was limited to 18 Hz collection speed or 9 Hz RMW for reliable data collection without missed data. Attempting higher speeds caused data to be missed because it was not collected by the computer until after the next piece of data had overwritten it. This limitation has continued through all subsequent versions of Windows. When Windows uses its own timeslice for its own purposes, it causes data (and especially RMW) to be missed.

Everyone in Microsoft told us to use equipment that put timestamps on the data and sort it out later. That does not work in process control where the process gets feedback from the data. How do you put a timestamp on a chemical process to tell it that a reagent should have been added 110 ms earlier? How do you put a timestamp on a human subject to tell him that the stimulus should have been applied at a different time?

These problems still exist in Windows.

We ran studies on Matlab, which claimed to eliminate these problems. It did not eliminate the problem, it just hid the errors from the user.

Hence, ongoing updates. And at some point, it is no longer financially viable to do that for ALL previous versions.
There is a solution to that: DON'T make a newer version. Keep the same version forever. Oh, but then you don't make money by forcing everyone to upgrade.

I own a virus-proof computer. It still works, but I can't use it anymore because I can't get disks and other supplies for it, There is no way a virus can infect it because the OS is in ROM. No updates. No infection dangers. And it NEVER CHANGES. This is the kind of computer I really need for both kinds of work.

You chose the wrong platform at the start.
With my limited budget, I didn't have a choice. Your stupid ideas involve throwing money at the problem - money most musicians don't have. And the platforms that were available then are not available today.

In the lab, there was no choice of platform. The IT department of the university dictated it.

And the shuttle software has exactly squat to do with your music production software.
My point was that they never allowed it to be changed, upgraded, or updated.

Maybe you should rail against your software vendors, for not creating a new version that is compatible with a modern OS. They share at least as much of the blame for your current situation.
No they don't. Microsoft is causing the problem by changing the OS faster than they can get new hardware and software ready for the previous version.

It takes them about 3 years to create a new version of hardware and software that works with the new OS and get all of the timing bugs out. By the time it is ready for market, Microsoft has a new version of the OS. Many companies went out of business because they could not keep up. Others require you to keep the old OS to use their products.

There were only 3 periods when the OS stayed around long enough for products to be ready before Microsoft played the upgrade game again: MS-DOS, Windows 3.0-3.1, and Windows XP. So most of the music and lab systems available need one of these versions.

I found out a secret. Many music and lab systems, when they miss data, cheat by interpolating.

 

USAFRet

Splendid
Moderator
The Space Shuttle software never went through any changes? Never updated?
You could not be more wrong

https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/9260/how-often-if-ever-was-software-updated-in-the-shuttle-orbiter
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20110014946.pdf

They also changed hardware along with the software.

Of course, thee and me could never, ever afford that level of code rigidity, standardization and testing.
"In an industry where the average line of code cost the government (at the time of the report) approximately $50 (written, documented, and tested), the Primary Avionics System Software cost NASA slightly over $1,000 per line. A total of $500 million was paid to IBM for the initial development and support of PASS."

I'm out.
 

13thmonkey

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so you picked XP for a 15 year experiment knowing these facts:
1. there have been several OS's in the decade preceding this point.
2. hardware has been steadily increasing in power for the previous decade, there's even a law named after it
3. hardware is not designed to run for 15-20 years guaranteed without failure
3.1 you might get lucky and it does, do all of the voltages coming off that PSU match what they started as? (hint they won't)
3.2 because of point 2 a hardware failure 10 years into the experiment would result in you dumpster diving for spares, which would have unknown provenance.
3.3 that hardware would not in actuality be stable over time, reference voltages will shift as resistors and capacitors age.

Vs an industrial control system that is designed to be stable for 10's of years, with standardised components that are not expected to increase in power because no-one desires that.

 
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